Business issues - a general catchall for all seo business related discussions pages - Admissible as Evidence

Thread Title: Internet Archive’s Web Page Snapshots Held Admissible as Evidence Thread Url: Thread Description:

The Standford Law School for Internet & Society are reporting that a US judge has ruled that's Way Back Machine pages are admissible as evidence.

Magistrate Judge Arlander Keys rejected Polska’s assertion of hearsay, holding that the archived copies were not themselves statements susceptible to hearsay exclusion, since they merely showed what Polska had previously posted on its site. He also noted that, since Polska was seeking to suppress evidence of its own previous statements, the snapshots would not be barred even if they were hearsay. Over Polska’s objection, Judge Keys accepted an affidavit from an Internet Archive employee as sufficient to authenticate the snapshots for admissibility.

Story via BoingBoing

Using PageRank for Economic Gain

Thread Title: Thoughts about the PR Economy Thread Url: Thread Description:

These are some thoughts I've had recently after reading some posts about "Limited PR Theory" and the doubling of the Google index.

With the recent rise in importance of inbound links in the latest Google algorithms webmasters have begun enormous link building campaigns, adding link directories to their sites, gaining reciprocal and triangular links etc. I've been thinking more and more about how PR has become a virtual commodity which has a real monetary value. If you look at the money markets, you find that traders can make millions of dollars on minor fluctuations in prices between different currencies. If this theory is applied to the economy of PR then it is plain to see that due to the irregular updates to PR a company could exploit the same principle e.g.

A New Rule in SEO: The Beckham Rule

Thread Title: David Beckham and SEO Thread Url: Thread Description:

This is one of those threads that makes you think. NFFC applies soccer to SEO in such a way to make the point: Rules affect behavior, and you really need to think ahead of the search engines.

Search Marketing Association EU Launch Public Blog

Thread Title: Search Marketing Association EU - Public Blog goes Live Today Thread Url: Thread Description:

SMA-EU have launched a blog, a good start regarding member communications and hopefully an indication of the kind of commitment to members and interested parties one would hope for in light of sempo's shameful attitude to such issues.

Mikkel deMib Svendsen

There are many ways to communicate with members of an organization like SMA – blogging is one of the fastest and least intrusive ones. We will be sending out news on the mailing list too and probably host a local forum too when time is ready for that but to speed up communication we decided a blog would be a good start. This is an easy way for the working group to keep coming members up-to-date on what we do and not the least provide members with tool to comment it all.

Andy Atkins-Krüger

An association that represents its membership needs excellent communication - and communication is a TWO-WAY process. Blogs and forums are especially good at that so this is the first of those.!

Do Search Engines have the Right to Copy your Content?

Thread Title: has Google got the right to display my website? Thread Url: Thread Description:

This is always a topic of some contention: Does an SE have the legal right to copy, cache or just list links to a website. This WPW thread is frought with silly replies that totally miss the OP's point but amongst the garbage there are a few sensible comments on the legalities of SE's and copyrights.

thecat starts out with what to me is a pretty simple question:

Why has Google or any other SE got the right to display my website on its search engine? does it own the web?

if I took someone elses content or title and keywords and put the information on my site i'd be in trouble, so why can google or other SE's?

This is followed by a truck load of nonsense posts along the lines of "robots.txt", "because they can", "it's just how it works!". It's not untill quite late in the thread that PikoTech finally breaks the stranglehold of silliness and adds this to the fray:

Google labs actually have on their terms and conditions page that "You also agree that you will not use any robot, spider, other automated device, or manual process to monitor or copy any content from the Site." (

Yet although they do have a robots.txt file for Yahoo! do have the Google labs website in their index. And I'm doubting very much that they wrote to Google to get written permission to add it to their index.

Does that mean Yahoo! should be prosecuted by Google? Also does that mean Yahoo! ignores robots.txt

after minstrel says point blank that SE's have the right to copy content the OP (thecat) asks "So if they have the right, do we?" and oh my, i just cant bring myself to repeat what follows lol! Go check it out, its a very, very funny thread.

Getting Down to Business

As far as i can tell, publishing links and snippets as descriptions would all be covered under "fair use" - this has been stated many times by many people. It's when you start talking about the idea of anyone displaying your entire web page (as in an SE cache) that the boundaries of fair use start to blur and we get to the real debate.

In Search of a Business Model for Bloggers

Thread Title: Betting on Tools that Power Blogs Thread Url: Thread Description:

Olga Kharif of BusinessWeek compares the blogging business model search with the early days of the commercial net and how, like then, picks and shovels are doing far better than anything else right now as VC's plough big cash into enablers and information culling.

The independent-minded blogging community may be chagrined to see, however, that the most obvious money in blogging is in the software that helps big companies establish and manage corporate blogs, as well as software that culls data from the ever-growing blogosphere. It's much like the early days of e-commerce. While e-tailers were spending and spending to build their Web sites, e-commerce software makers were raking in the cash. To use an analogy to California's gold rush: It wasn't the miners who got rich, it was the people who sold the picks and shovels.

That's certainly where venture capitalists are putting their money. "Anybody in the industry who says people haven't figured out how to make money on blogging are being ridiculous," says Brad Feld, a managing director at Technorati investor Mobius Venture Capital in Superior, Colo

Story via PaidContent

Push & Pull SEO - How to Draw Customers into a Bricks n Mortar Biz

Thread Title: Restaurant Promotion Thread Url: Thread Description:

Hyperperformance asks:

My question is that I would like to know of any suggestions or successful promotion campaigns that we can use here in taking advantage of a push/pull scenario. You know, push them to the "new" site with a promo that pushes them back to the resaurants?

He's getting some great advice from the HRF members! I especially like Scottie's idea for wine tasting nights. I just hope this restaurant is close to me so I can join in on the fun! ;)

Defensive SEO - Copyright KungFu & Name Trading Kick Ass Karate

Thread Title: How can you use SEO defensively? Thread Url: Thread Description:

This is a great thread, a real cracker! - No idea why the boys and girls at cre8 havn't sent it my way. Sheesh!

kajax101 is asking about a scenario in which a competitor company might take advantage of a common misspelling of his company name to leech traffic and customers. Black_Knight comes in with some good advice regarding legal recourse and defensive SEO.

The thread winds and turns and covers many of the things that can happen when a competitor decides to do the dirty on you and how you might combat some of those moves.

Here's one danger pointed out by BK:

Reviews can be optimised for your trademarks and such, under fair use. They really are talking about your product. Thus they can optimise extensively both on site and through third-party links, for your trademarks and company name etc.

Following on from that SEBasic gives some interesting commentary on how cloaking might be used. Great thread!

Time Tracking & Billing Software for SEOs

Thread Title: Time Tracking and Billing Software Thread Url: Thread Description:

Nice discussion from the mods over at cr8 on billing and time tracking programs. Funny how it's only the mods and a few hardcore members that post over the weekend on many fora - guess that's why they mod, they dont take a break! heh..

Featured in the discussion are: BillQuick, MyOB and Quick Books.

Forrester urges Companies to Monitor Blogs

Thread Title: Forrester report on corporate blogs Thread Url: Thread Description:

When And How Businesses Should Use Blogs

Although Weblogs (blogs) are currently used by only a small number of online consumers, they've garnered a great deal of corporate attention because their readers and writers are highly influential. Forrester believes that blogging will grow in importance, and at a minimum, companies should monitor blogs to learn what is being said about their products and services.

From Charlene Li's blog.

Russell Beattie also made some notable comments about blogs, content & communicontent today..

Seems everytime i hit bloglines someone is saying somthing about corporate blogs these days...

Ethics of PPC Management for Clients in the Same Field

Thread Title: grnidone starts a corking thread Thread Url: Thread Description:

"Because the company I work for makes a percentage of the total spend, we could, conceivably bid these companies against each other for the same terms, thus increasing the spend for both companies, and thus making more money from both."

I think this one will be a hot thread, many of the issues raised will related to PPC's older and wiser brother SEO. I'm expecting a great post from Andrew Goodman even though I'm sure I won't agree with a single word of it.

Drop Shippers Beware - Pros and Cons of the Drop Ship Game

Thread Title: Drop Shipping question Thread Url: Thread Description:

Following on from the earlier Dropshippper List post, here's a thread over at Digitalpoint that's just too good to tack on as a comment to the previous.

Experienced dropship marketers talk about the pros and cons of what can be a very saturated market. This from lorien1973:

I drop ship a lot right now - I'm moving away from the model slowly but surely. If a product can be dropshipped - rest assured there are 10 million internet stores who are selling it. So you immediately throw yourself into a very big pond. Happily, 9.9 million of these stores are part time; so they aren't competition - but they keep their prices so low (Cuz they are only doing it for a little extra cash) that it can lower the overall value of the products you want to carry. Be wary of that.

Truth is; most distributors who make you carry inventory have a VERY low opening order ($300 bucks or so, and $100 minimum orders after that), so its not hard nor does it take a lot of space to get more unique products that you can mark up to your heart's desire or what the market will bear (or is it bare?). And if you ask nice, some of them will even dropship some of their products for you (after you have done your opening order) - especially the expensive ones that take up room or cash. If you go that route, you can also outsource your warehouse to fulfillment companies who will ship for you so you don't have to do that (and its not too expensive either).

Looking to Sell via Dropship? - The BIg Bad Dropshipper List

Thread Title: Lists of dropshippers Thread Url: Thread Description:

Whether you're an affiliate looking to up your game or a store owner looking to add extra products to your online offerings then you may have looked into dropship merchants. Finding lists for dropshippers can be a toughie right?

Linked above is a nice list from WPW member carbonize followed by various other contributions to the growing collection. Nice, thanks carbonize!

Local Search and the Future of the Small SEM Shop

Thread Title: Local Search Marketing: A Huge Untapped Market Thread Url: Thread Description:

Quite possibly, im becoming a bit of a Bob Massa groupie, I dont know, the stuff this guy writes just seems to strike a chord with me and this thread is no exception.

Chris Sherman posts about a searchday article which sparks some interesting predictions from massa on the future of the small SEM shop in the context of local search and changing business climates:

If you are reading this now with a cigarette hanging from your lips, Your'e 20 to 40 + pounds overweight, you're not sure if it's raining or not outside and you haven't eaten anything that was not cooked for you, came in a paper bag or prepared in a microwave in the last two weeks, if you are not comfortable with getting out of bed before noon, taking a shower and putting on some clean clothes appropriate for the business community, you may be in a position to watch some young whipper-snapper take your market share Being #1 based on your ISP's location in Google for search enigne marketing may get you the call, but the guy willing to show up or invite the prospect to an office, (I guess the bedroom could be an office if you mnde the bed, but I'd feel a little uncomfortable talking to you in your pajama bottoms while sitting on your bed), is the one who will be able to getting the real deals.


mburgess also puts forth some theories/plans on how local search could be used to pre-test national campaigns. I tend to agree with the basic concept that this will change everything...

Affiliate Tracking Systems for Merchants

Thread Title: affiliate tracking system accounting for recurring sales Thread Url: Thread Description:

This thread is a mental self promo fest and that's no bad thing at all when the orignial poster, kidmercury is asking for recommendations on affiliate tracking systems. It'd be kinda lame if you didnt hear from the developers themselves right?

Well, and are both in there giving their best pitches and provided you take that into account, it's an interesting read for anyone considering opening an aff. program.

Would be nice if a few customers of these programs turned up though, i'd love to hear a less biased account of both programs...

InfoSearch Media / Traffic Logic - Love 'em or Hate 'em?

Thread Title: Traffic Logic - What do you think of it? Thread Url: Thread Description:

I'll have to admit that my knowledge of Traffic Logic, part of InfoSearch Media is slim at best. They've certainly been tarred with a bad brush for their practices in various forums and blogs but is this just a case of people not understanding or agreeing with the business model?

Some outstandingly compelling arguments in favor of the group in the threadlink above has me looking at them in a slightly different light. Not necessarily a good light, in my experience there is rarely smoke without fire, but definately a different light.

Check out massa at msg9

In my experience, virtually every prospect calls you up telling you that what they want is to be in the top of the search engines. That is not true. That is not what they really want. What they really want is for me to make them money and they simply believe that they have to be in the top of the search engines to do that.

If you don't believe me just ask anyone who has ever had a client at #1 for the keyword the client said he wanted to be #1 for, only to have that client cancel. Why? The #1 placement did not make the client money. At least, not enough to make it worth the fee.

My question is, would you really spend your time trying to convince a prospect that he is mistaken and doesn't REALLY want your kind of services and explain where he is misguided? Or would you congratulate him on his being smart enough to have selected you to ask and then explain the features and benefits of your service? Is that deceptive?

Swiftly backed up by DaveN

Ethical Standards and The Search Engine Marketing Industry

Thread Title: Ethical Standards and The Search Engine Marketing Industry Thread Url: Thread Description:

Yep, ethics again...

Really, i do wish the whole search community would just grow up a little and open it's damn eyes. I fully expect to get tarred and feathered for my post in msg3 but what the hell, it's as important to me as it is to SEW member doppelganger who wrote the article being discussed: What the Search Engines Can Do which is the first part of a series of well written but dreadfully naive articles...

So get on over there and roast me, or do it right here if you like ;-)

Looking at Aternative Payment Methods

Thread Title: Payments method... I need advice... Thread Url: Thread Description:

DP member cdx is having problems with PayPal (sound familiar?) - In here, your going to find some nice links to alternatives to PayPal for the smaller biz. As i've been taking a lazy look at this myself over the last couple of months I thought it a pretty useful thread. Sure we've discussed this a dozen times already but there are a few things in here i'd not heard of before so here ya go...

Personally Written Link Requests - Benefit - Time Ratio?

Thread Title: Is the benefit of writing completely personal email outweighed by the time involved? Thread Url: Thread Description:

Nice thread over at WMW with some pretty good tips on how to write convincing and appealing personalized link requests. Starts off dull but gets much better...

Mike Grehan on SEMPO Communications

Thread Title: SEMPO Announces 3 New Advisory Board Members Thread Url: Thread Description:

Grehan, articlulate as ever, writes a scathing post on the actions of the oh so amusing SEMPO.

"So, I think it's fair to ask, if the search engine marketing community at large, and that's the search engines, the vendors and suppliers as well as industry pundits and notable names are happy to represent themselves in forums - how is it that the very people who nominated themselves as industry representatives are the only people who feel they're above it?"

"As a would-be industry representative body, the only descriptive word which springs to mind for me, is: pathetic"