Announcing The Dave Pasternack SEO Contest


Threadwatch has decided to get on the SEO contest bandwagon. Whoever ranks #1 in Google for Dave Pasternack at noon Eastern on March 1st, 2007 wins $1,000 from Threadwatch. In addition to the $1,000 prize for the top ranking site, Threadwatch will also give away $100 to the most interesting PPC ad running at that time, as voted for by our editors.

"To be fair, Danny Sullivan said that anything is rocket science if you don’t understand it. Well I don’t know how to bake a cake, but I wouldn’t call such a task “rocket science.” If I really wanted to bake one, I’d buy a cookbook (the Google guidelines) and bake away. Can you imagine bake shops trying to convince everybody that baking a cake is so complicated that it shouldn’t be left to mere mortals? Ridiculous." - Dave Pasternack

Have an entry you would like us to see? Please submit it to this thread so we can check out how well you bake cake.

If is the top ranked site the winner will be the next site ranked below Contest void where prohibited, etc.

Update: The whole point of this contest is to get people to talk about what SEO it easy, hard, somewhere beteen? Please do not make hate pages in response to this contest...we can be civil and still discuss the topic of SEO, can't we? :)

Update 2: Winner announced.


Did you mean: Dave

Did you mean: Dave Pasternack

yes... that sounds about

yes... that sounds about right...

url drop

you want a url drop to the domain thats in the running or just a hey I am competing ?

url drop to specific entries please

url drop to specific entries please

and we're off to the

and we're off to the races... :)

Does the PPC ad have to be

Does the PPC ad have to be triggered by a search for Dave Pasternack?

Or can you just show the ad on a search for assclown?

I would like to see both

I would like to see both winners on the same SERP

Finally A Reason For Me To Start Blogging Again

on my "Not-a-Blog"... I saw this in my inbox this morning from DMNews and thought, "Jeez, can he find something new to whine about, 'cause I've had it!" And now I can vent with a good 'ole SEO contest. Just to be clear this is a contest about Dave Pasternack from The same David Pasternack mentioned in this thread as well? Also, we targeting "Dave" not "David", correct?


and so it begins...

any rules ?

any rules ?

Darn it Wrong Keywords

If only this contest was about ranking for [] ...

I am freaking on the floor

My blog is on page 2 in Google for it already.. but I don't think I will be taking place in the contest...

It's not that I don't agree with it.. in fact I think it's funny as hell.. but it's just too much of a personal attack.

If I open my mouth and say something stupid one day.. there will be a contest with my name on it... I just feel that this guy doesn't have a clue about SEO ... and the industry already knows it.. like this SEO contest would be just a super slap in the face.

Ranking for 'Globalwarming Awareness2007' is one thing.. ranking for some guys name.. that is something else.

Let me stress I think it is funny... it's just not something that I would do personally... I feel this guy is fool of epic proportions... a toolshed to the N'th level.. and by opening his mouth like that he should of expected a Google search for his name to head to multiple unsavory websites.

Not cool

Linkbait at someone's expense. Classy.

A community jumping on someone, them's the breaks. A community site publicly sponsoring linkbait by demeaning someone? Not cool and not funny.

Threadwatch. The 'Nelson' of the Seo Community.

>any rules? the rules, as

>any rules?

the rules, as they are known, are on this page.

>Linkbait at someone's expense.

who submitted this one

Be careful

what you say. There is another Dave Pasternack out there who actually can bake a cake.


I apologized for that as soon as I found out it was in error. Publicly and repeatedly - here, on matt's blog and on my own. And it wasn't linkbait (since this isn't my site and I don't profit from your traffic here) and I was making a valid observation - not trying to turn a nickel off it.

And you? If you're going to use my errors as an excuse for your own, are you also going to follow my example of backing down and publicly apologizing?

repeated offense

Hey we all make mistakes and say stupid things from time to time. We either learn from them and keep quiet in the future or apologize and try not to do it again. He really seems to relish the attention and keep repeating the same mistake over and over.

i just had fun with photoshop

I wrote something up -- but it was more fun to play in photoshop with a baker's hat (hmmm and is it just me, or do most clip art of baker's hats look like ummm something else? LOL)

Dave Pasternack, Frog Prince of Did-It


Because Dave exposed the dirty little secret of SEO companies, that SEO can indeed be a one-off expense?

Tsk tsk, for shame, for shame.

For Sale: My Review of your

For Sale: My Review of your Dave Pasternack page.

Limited offering. Up to TWO blog posts on my blog about your Dave Pasternack entry. You pick the date of publication and the landing page, I pick the content. Make an offer. Think of the Thousand Dollar Prize.

Personally I can't wait to see the page-after-page of creative displayed on the final day. That should be entertaining.

I'm with Wheel

I'm with Wheel on this one.

If you think a guy is full of baloney, the better way to skewer him is with solid logic and hard facts.

PROVE him wrong, don't just mock him.

Yeah nasty. Karma for this

Yeah nasty. Karma for this one.

He really seems to relish

He really seems to relish the attention

Exactly. "Don't feed the troll".

Would be so much more fun

Would be so much more fun for his company if it was for "Dave Pasternack of Did-It".

Today, I overheard a client asking a sales guy if he has heard of "did it" today. Almost spit water.

Why? - Because he keeps beating a dead horse

Jill -
Why? I know why I wrote what I did. Because he keeps pounding this drum, over and over and over and over again, just for publicity sake.

Sure some SEO firms are like that, but the majority of us aren't. The same could be said for his precious PPC. How hard is it to whip out a credit card write an entertaining ad and put it up in Google - yet his company charges a ton of money to do the same.

Neither is rocket science (i'm tired of that comparison too), but neither are as easy as baking a cake. He's also gotten a bit antagonistic, with this latest round of "smack".

Lord I hope Mr. Graywolf over there decides to join the contest, that would prove to most interesting! :)


This whole "IS or IS NOT Rocket Science" thing misses the mark somewhat and is misunderstood by many people, both outside and within the SEO industry.

Getting sound out of a Piano is easy - you just press down on the keys. However, enticing a musical performance out of a collection of peices of timber, strings of wire, and bits of black and white plastic, ie., Playing Music on the Piano, is an Art that requires talent and practice.

The basics of SEO are easy; Titles, Tags, Architecture, Navigation, Links, and so on. Knowing how to apply the basics to produce the required results is where the Art comes in. And moving beyond the Basics, well, that is in itself yet another story.

Much like the company who had a faulty machine that no-one could fix. Until the company brought in "The Expert", who, after looking and listening to the machine for hours upon hours, tapped it lightly with a hammer, packed up and left having fixed it.

His Bill was for $5,000 - $1 for tapping the machine with his hammer, $4,999 for knowing where to tap.

Mr Pasternack has an opinion, one could argue whether he does or does not understand SEO. And other people seem to have an opinion about his opinion.

So be it.


What Woz said

What Woz said.

Rough treatment

Only one opinion here but this seems fairly heavy handed and unfair. Elite SEO persons have the power to in effect defame someone on a world stage with permanent effects.
Misuse of "power" really. Taliban tactics if you will.

I agree. How would Aaron

I agree. How would Aaron Wall like a competition saying his book sucks shit?

Do we have anything else to

Do we have anything else to bitch about while we're at it?

Ted Leonsis

You guys just can't focus.

While you're all arguing about rocket science someone else nailed the #4 spot with a nice spoof on Ted.

Defame ?

Defame ?

- The guy claims its all bullshit.. well. now he can put up or shut up.

- Why would anyone say anything nasty about him ? Other than disagreeing with the guys professional opinion I have nothing bad to say about the guy. Maybe someone will but I don't know the guy.

- I honestly doubt anyone will outrank him or the other guy in the end anyways.

My 2 cents

Yes focussing on one person might seem as good as giving into the retard
who caused lots of problems with the WP hack

How would Aaron Wall like a competition saying his book sucks shit?

I dont see the original post as vindictive or rough treatment. Has anyone suggested
G bowling or causing mayhem for personal blogs or Did It? Nope.

Will this competition change Daves mind? highly unlikely. Aaron just has his book he doesnt come out to people suggesting its all very obvious, its just presented to you with advice and background, but not commentary that anything is better than the other, like all good books, you are given the info and what you do afterwards is your choice.

As they say "put up or shut up" if SEO is BS, I would prefer if someone is going to be so outspoken they give examples of "why"

Reading Googles Guidelines is not a good example without some solid examples

It may be bad karma in some peoples eyes but if you want to put yourself in the spotlight, you need to back it up. Let the competition begin

I was going to enter this comp

Just throw up some nice content on a new domain.
Do a few days of easy SEO and walk away and wait to hit number one - easy.

then I realised I'd have to work on the SEO day after day.
**stuff that*** who ever said SEO was easy?????

Oh yeah, SEO isn't rocket science, it is harder
kids can make rockets

No Contest

I'll let you all duke it out for the chump change, but his comments did incite me to point out some rambling items about people living in glass houses type of thing.

Rocket science my ass...

Rambling Items

IncrediBILL, those aren't rambling items, let's all be lighthearted about this. The rules are always changing, even the webmaster guidelines change from time to time. Perhaps some think that they can go out and buy links with their client's checkbook and not create link bait.

Just tell me who to link to

I am sick of this guy shitting on my profession. I do both PPC and SEO, and both are more complex if you are good at it, and really simple if you don't know shit. He obviously doesn't know shit about SEO.


Because Dave exposed the dirty little secret of SEO companies, that SEO can indeed be a one-off expense?

Tsk tsk, for shame, for shame.

It really depends on what you are calling SEO.. If you are talking the standard sitemaps, inital copy adjustments.. making sure they are not using &id=XX in the urls... then fine.. you are correct... stuff like that could be a 1 time project.

But you know that SEO in general is far more than that.

My firm does more than that.. we go on their site and post on their blog multiple times per day with industry relevent news for example, and my clients rank for all sorts of revelent terms from the increased level of content being added each day for example.

Other stuff all the time changes as well, such as Yahoo and MSN for example in the process of adopting the standard rather than the old Yahoo urllist.txt sitemap.

This stuff changes so frequently that it's not a one time job.

submitting all their new videos to Google Video and YouTube on a daily basis is part of what I would consider search optimization or better said Video Optimization.

I don't know.... just adjusting metas is one thing.. actually going out there and posting content on the clients site on a daily basis is another.

There is no way that could be thrown into a one lump fee when it takes place over months upon months.


Personally I think this is a bit - personal - i don't like what he said, nor do I agree with what he said just to clarify, but also, have you all considered the ammunition this gives him (Dave)? He could have a good old rant at how SEO's from a respected blog 'maliciously determined to manipulated the search engines in retaliation to his comments about SEO not being rocket science, showing yet again that many SEO's can get high listings (as will be evidenced by the no of listings on Google - and he'll have an actual term to give them - you're making it easy for him), in a short time frame, and that as a group we all deliberately and regularly spam the engines...'' and on.. and on.. and on... and that might not be so good..

Just my small thought for the day I guess... I won't be participating, but thought I would expand the field of thought here a smidge.

Dave Pasternack

Dave Pastenack Wikipedia Page

Figure he's earned one (though I don't expect the Threadwatch community to link to it).


I was just going to set up a wiki page and offer it as my entry, with directions to pay any winnings to Dave Pastenack :).

I'm all for linking to the wiki page from my blog. :).

SEO COULD be a one time thing...

If clients listened and worked hard.

The ongoing part is beating *cough* how to be a baker *cough* into their heads, and making sure they execute on it:)

btw...this is a great example of the attack hook gone wrong. It's not really cool to jump all over someone, but it's hard to defend someone who knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he *ahem* did it.


>>>I posted this in another thread but it really fits here and I want Mr. Pasternack to read this.

??I think every real SEO here knows this guy is spouting off about things he does not understand.

If he really thinks SEO is so simple why does he not prove it (in other words back up his statement with a few facts or actions)?

Maybe because he can’t.

If SEO is so simple as he says, Mr. Pasternack should be able to rank a page in the top ten for ANY given keyword or keyword set. So why doesn’t he?

Mr. Pasternack could shut us all up and make us look like fools, IF he were to rank a page on his own for any competitive keyword.

I can tell you why he won't rank a page for compeditive keywords, because he can’t.
Because SEO is NOT simple nor easy.

Mr. Pasternack needs to prove what he is saying or show some evidence to support his statements or shut up.

Mr. Pasternack is talking out his ass...
Unless he can prove what he is saying by ranking a page for a competitive keyword within a reasonable time.

I make this promise. If Mr. Pasternack can rank a page on his own for any top competitive keyword, within a reasonable time frame, I will kiss his bare ass (or any bare ass he chooses) in public and in front of cameras.

I will also give $1000 to Mr. Pasternack's favorite charity, in his name.

Come on Dave P. don’t keep talking shit, PROVE IT and make fools of us... If you can.

Rough treatment Only one

Rough treatment

Only one opinion here but this seems fairly heavy handed and unfair. Elite SEO persons have the power to in effect defame someone on a world stage with permanent effects.
Misuse of "power" really. Taliban tactics if you will.

That is not a problem though - it is so easy Dave P can just own the SERPs with his own stuff so it won't get seen by anybody...

You can run a contest for

You can run a contest for saying my book sucks if you want to, but the idea that everything has to be vile and spiteful is not accurate with my intent. The intent of this page is to ruin anyone's name. Nobody has said anything too bad yet, and I think we are a far more civil and intelligent group than some give us credit for being.

What is the net effect of this contest? More people are talking about SEO, and that it is not as easy as some would (mistakenly) portray it to be. So where is the real harm?

And if a person already getting mainstream press can't rank themselves for their own name then they have no legs to stand on calling SEO crap. It is literally the easiest search result in the world for him to dominate.

actually the anglefire page

actually the anglefire page was pretty bad, but most of the entries have been fairly tame.

I don't want to incite is too short for that... just get people talking about how easy or hard seo is.

David Pasternack can't hold

David Pasternack can't hold Ted Leonsis' jock. I say this because it's true, not because me and Ted are basically the Internet version of Paris and Britney now.

David Who?

Seems to me the people who know SEO and do it for themselves could not give a hoot who this guy is and what he says. They know what they do and they don't give a shit if someone believes it's an honorable profession or says it's snake oil.

Then there are the guys who peddle their wares. They've been defamed buy this "bum". Natural you guys are upset, but nobody gives a shit except you. This is just a back scratching thread. Mutual masturbation.

I can't see him changing

his stance somehow...

I had to write a quick advert

This should be...

Interesting to say the least :)

Yawn Yawn Yawn - Just Maybe...

This guy doesnt give a shit about Aaron Wall and Threadwatch. Why should he?

Yawn Yawn Yawn - Just Maybe...

This guy doesnt give a shit about Aaron Wall and Threadwatch. Why should he?

Yawn Yawn Yawn - Just Maybe...

This guy doesnt give a shit about Aaron Wall and Threadwatch. Why should he?

I'm sorry?

could you repeat that?

BTW cabbage, your elbow's leaning against your enter key.

whether he cares or not

it doesn't matter. like aaron said, it's his own damn name. if he gets out ranked, what does he have to stand on?


i didn't know TW comments were pruned. my first one was better.


This for real or not? I put my post in here, some reason it got deleted. If its real i want in:

$1,000 Offered....

To anyone who can get me to participate in a 'CabbageLooking' SEO contest.
I just aint that bothered and probably neither is he.

You're right...

...your time is much better spent trolling in forums

Did any of you even read the

Did any of you even read the interview? Where'd he say SEO is easy? Where'd he say anything that you guys are saying here?

Do some of you truly believe SEO is rocket science? Saying that it isn't rocket science is hardly the same thing as saying it's easy.

What is a straw man? Not

What is a straw man? Not sure. All I know how to do is bake cakes.

I think very few people are on point with why some people may be annoyed. NFFC summed it up nicely here

That is the post everyone should read twice.

Jill, actually I believe he

Jill, actually I believe he made an association with baking from a cookbook (using only googles guidelines) which people are taking as meaning it is simple. I can see why they would read it that way.

>Do some of you truly

>Do some of you truly believe SEO is rocket science?

While not rocket science, I aligned nuclear instruments and was a nuclear reactor operator, and I would say it was far easier to do those than SEO...largely because there were nuclear cook books for virtually all conditions and operations. That isn't the case for SEO.

Be afraid

While not rocket science, I aligned nuclear instruments and was a nuclear reactor operator, and I would say it was far easier to do those than SEO...largely because there were nuclear cook books for virtually all conditions and operations. That isn't the case for SEO

Aarons going to go all nuclear on us :)

The Dave Pasternack Wikipedia Page Might Be Quickly Deleted

Dave Pasternack Wikipedia Page

I invite any and all Threadwatch readers to comment at Wikipedia as to whether this page should stay or go. Pasternack is an important person in the field of internet marketing (cough) and is very worthy of a Wikipedia page IMO.

Tell you what Dave..

I'm making you my humming bird for the next 3 months.

Yum, cake

I like cake. I can't bake one well, though. OK, I used to buy those Betty Crocker instant cake things. I liked eating the frosting packets more than making the cake, though.

Can't make donuts. Not at all. I buy those from shops. Tim Horton's if I'm in Canada. Can we have a Tim Horton's contest too? Hey, I'm like number five on Google for tim hortons donuts. Maybe I can get some donuts for that? Yum, donuts.

Did you know that Did-It doesn't rank in the top 100 results on Google for [paid search]. Not that I can see. Pretty sure they want to. I mean, that's in the title tag.

iProspect does (like 13th). Apogee Search, OneUpWeb does, SearchRank does, Ineedhits does. Nope, don't see Did-It there. Well, it's not rocket science. I'm sure Dave will spend a few minute and get that sorted out after baking a cake.

Did I miss something, by the way? I mean this is all so easy? But in 2005, Dave said:

Most people working in "the real world" of advertising surely know that search engines exist, but their level of understanding of the way that search campaigns actually work, at either the tactical or strategic levels, is either undeveloped or nonexistent. When you talk to these people about Adrank, search algorithms, or predicted CTR, their eyes glaze over....

Mix this low visibility with the tone and tenor of trade press articles written by journalists who also don't know much about search engines and the situation gets worse. Such articles, when they appear, tend to focus on sensational aspects of our industry such as the unethical antics of "blackhat" SEOs, the specter of click fraud, or the fear of sky-high keyword prices. These issues are important, but they're not representative of the full spectrum of issues and concerns we struggle with every day....

Equally important are public education and training. The search engines, including Google, are active in this area and more general-level public seminars are happening to educate the business world about search marketing's power. Organizations such as SEMPO (the Search Engine Marketing Professional Organization) and the DMA are working to create more and better training materials for new entrants to the market. Training is key, because this industry is short-staffed, mainly because the skill sets required for practitioners are so specialized.

Skill sets? I thought like monkeys could do that. I thought it was just a few hours reading Google's documents. Why on earth would I need to go through an actual certification program like SEMPO has just rolled out. Shouldn't Dave be attacking SEMPO for causing people to waste their time and money being certified? Why on earth is Dave's partner Kevin Lee and his company supporting such a sham? I'm confused. Wouldn't people spent their time and money better by baking some cakes?

Maybe I'm just grumpy since Dave in his recent column suggests I'm defending SEO as an important part of the search marketing house because he believes all my conference attendees are SEOs. Yeah, right. I need to make it all paid search. I mean, I generally have a good balance between the two, but clearly it should be like 100 percent paid search. Wait a minute, what did Kevin Lee say about reasons to attend the last New York show:

"Improve your SEO. This is a paid search strategies column, but with Google's recent banning of high-profile sites, you can't be too careful when it comes to knowing the limits of SEO and best practices. There's even a session called SEO Overkill."

Can't be too careful? Surely you just read Google's guidelines and your cake won't fall. Why go to some session? Gosh, what am I doing wasting time on this stuff.

The Rocket of Cakes Can't Easily Be Baked

Cakes may be easily baked, but most folx would agree that you should use a professional for your wedding cake. SEO can be pretty simple/straightforward for small sites, but once you increase anything in complexity it requires a lot broader and deeper understanding to manage well.

I've seen Dr. Garcia throw relatively simple math formulas up on screen at SES to illustrate methods SEs use in identifying duplicate content, and most of the nontechnical side of the audience were nearly stunned into comas. Trig formulas are simple, but most people don't understand how to use them, and SEO is the same sort of thing.

SEO isn't science, just as Dr. Garcia states, but even if it isn't, there are subtleties beyond the basics which can result in major differences in referral traffic. It requires a lot of time and effort to stay educated about how all the various moving parts work, and average Joes simply don't have the time to do that.

No SEO Book???

largely because there were nuclear cook books for virtually all conditions and operations. That isn't the case for SEO.

LOL...this from SEO BOOK himself! :)

If you did as much email

If you did as much email customer support as I do then you would know how tough it is.

My book is more about giving people ideas and frames of thinking rather than being a numbered procedure.

First Rankings Are Up at Google

Looks like the first initial 'rankings' are now showing up at Google...and this thread, announcing the contest, looks like it's doing pretty well so far for "Dave Pasternack".


Looks like his wiki page is gone, the google cache from yesterday still shows it, but following the link returns what should be a 404 but is a 200 with a suggestion to search for Dave Pasternack.

Did-It counters with $1000 donation to American Cancer Society.

The gauntlet has been thrown, and Did-It is countering. Kevin Lee has issued an appeal to marketers to link to Pasternack's bio on the company Web site. I notice they've also added that link and name to the site footer.

Did-It promises to donate the $1,000 prize to the American Cancer Society should they win it.

>The gauntlet has been

>The gauntlet has been thrown

Begging people to link to you so that you can rank for your own name is throwing a gauntlet down?

Throwing a gauntlet down is ranking for something that matters. If did-it can rank for anything worthwhile relating to their services I'd be shocked.


google just changed the ground rules.
No more link bombs (ya right).

NFFC said,
>>>If did-it can rank for anything worthwhile relating to their services I'd be shocked.

Not only will I be shocked, I will be poorer by $1000 and it looks like the American Cancer Society will be richer. I will honor my promise. But the ACS should not be counting their money yet. These clowns at did-it have shown themselves to be, a day late and a dollar short.

That's Just Sad

I mean, if SEO is so easy and only a one time thing, then nothing should be changed on their site and no additional link building should be done to keep David ranking for his name (which he currently does not), right? This should be a good example for their clients of why SEO can't be a one time thing - because the market changes! And now that the market for the term "Dave Pasternack" has changed, Did-it is revisiting their SEO strategy. Guess it can't just be a one time thing then huh? What will tell their clients who are in competitive markets and/or those whose markets are becoming competitive now? Will they tell them to go re-read the Google Webmaster Guidelines or will they tell them to go bake a cake, or will they admit that they were wrong - err, I mean mistaken in their assessment of the difficulty of SEO in a dynamic market.

Here's What My SEO Cake Looks Like

Not a contest entry, but a good laugh:

My SEO Cake - enjoy!

Oh hell

My blog unexpectedly just stumbled into the top 30 already, maybe I should give it a go!

Of course I'll be buried again tomorrow, who am I kidding ;)


I missed that tidbit earlier, they just made my official shitlist, it's on...

now's there's T-Shirts

OK ...admit it you all really want something from this page!

Rank WHERE in Google?

Hey Aaron, does being the Dave Pasternack Related Blog constitute a winning position for the Dave Pasternack SEO contest? You only specified to rank #1 in Google to win, you didn't specify WHERE in Google, and I'm not sure how anyone could get any higher on the page than this ;)

Two Bios

Did you notice that he's set up a second bio page for himself with a keyword-rich file name? Oooh. He knows all the tricks.

Anyway, isos has weighed in on this, but not for the contest (especially since we didn't use his full name anywhere in the post).

duplicate content

> Did you notice that he's set up a second bio page for himself with a keyword-rich file name? Oooh. He knows all the tricks.

Yes, I was trying to figure this out. I mean:

says buried deep, "Note: this is Dave's new bio page, which he created because SEO isn't rocket science. You can view Dave Pasternack's old bio page here."

So then I go to the "old" page:

Which doesn't look that different. I mean, the copy is all moved around, but the only reason for there being two pages seems to be to have two shots to rank well for his name.

Now I know SEO's not rocket science. I keep reading that somewhere from some guy. I remember reading you could learn what you need by reading the Google guidelines. I was just checking those out over here:

They say things like:

Avoid tricks intended to improve search engine rankings. A good rule of thumb is whether you'd feel comfortable explaining what you've done to a website that competes with you. Another useful test is to ask, "Does this help my users? Would I do this if search engines didn't exist?"

Don't create multiple pages, subdomains, or domains with substantially duplicate content.

Avoid "doorway" pages created just for search engines, or other "cookie cutter" approaches such as affiliate programs with little or no original content.

I dunno. I know this SEO stuff is all supposed to be easy. But am I reading the guidelines right? Has Dave created two duplicate pages when only one should exist, and done this solely for search engine purposes? 'Cause if that's the case, Did-It might find itself blocked from the Google index. At least, that's what the guidelines say.


webconnoisseur, that's a hell of a cake!

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