Announcing The Dave Pasternack SEO Contest

172 comments

Threadwatch has decided to get on the SEO contest bandwagon. Whoever ranks #1 in Google for Dave Pasternack at noon Eastern on March 1st, 2007 wins $1,000 from Threadwatch. In addition to the $1,000 prize for the top ranking site, Threadwatch will also give away $100 to the most interesting PPC ad running at that time, as voted for by our editors.

"To be fair, Danny Sullivan said that anything is rocket science if you don’t understand it. Well I don’t know how to bake a cake, but I wouldn’t call such a task “rocket science.” If I really wanted to bake one, I’d buy a cookbook (the Google guidelines) and bake away. Can you imagine bake shops trying to convince everybody that baking a cake is so complicated that it shouldn’t be left to mere mortals? Ridiculous." - Dave Pasternack

Have an entry you would like us to see? Please submit it to this thread so we can check out how well you bake cake.

If Threadwatch.org is the top ranked site the winner will be the next site ranked below Threadwatch.org. Contest void where prohibited, etc.

Update: The whole point of this contest is to get people to talk about what SEO is...is it easy, hard, somewhere beteen? Please do not make hate pages in response to this contest...we can be civil and still discuss the topic of SEO, can't we? :)

Update 2: Winner announced.

Comments

Stop giving Dave link love please

Danny, I noticed some of those issues with Dave Pasternack trying to rank his site and found screenshots to be a safer way to make my point without giving Dave any link love.

If we accidentally rank him #1 with all those links we'll all feel kind of silly doing his SEO work for him...

unfair

if you have reason to link to his page then link to him naturally, he's laid some linkbait, he's entitled to the links that gains him, surely?

And anyone who nofollows any links needs a severe slapping.

unfair?

He said the industry is nonsense, let him make his own links.

My Contribution

Dave Pasternack of Did-it.com How to Fix Your Problem

also be sure to visit Kevin Lee on LinkedIn (free login required I think)

So slap me

if you have reason to link to his page then link to him naturally, he's laid some linkbait, he's entitled to the links that gains him, surely?

And anyone who nofollows any links needs a severe slapping.

That isos post is the first time I've ever nofollowed a link. It made me feel all dirty doing it, but I didn't see a way around it.

Dave Pasternack Nutritional Profile

http://www.peertrainer.com/DFcaloriecounterB.aspx?id=9756

I've tagged him as high in iron and protein, but have little else to go on here. I assume as well that he would be "nutrient dense"

I still don't know who this

I still don't know who this Dave person is. Not that it matters, really. I'd prefer to stick to SEO and search marketing matters.

As for that second bio, isn't that just the start of his mini-net? I mean if he admits he's doing SEO, then there must be thousands more of those on the way. Maybe he's just a slow starter, or his page generator is still caching output.

things that make you go hmm

Seems kevin pulled the question I linked to this morning above, should have grabbed a screen shot ...

I've made the obligatory

I've made the obligatory Dave Pasternack page for this one too :D

I know I don't want to get outranked by Lone Wolf Mcquade

there you go

there you go greywolf
http://www.192directory.co.uk/scum-of-the-earth.gif

Kevin I think you are the scum of the earth for using a cancer charity as a lever to get links to your site and secondly your a complete and utter wanker for not having the balls to post your reply to the thread on linked-in but instead chose to reply to me via email and then closed the thread what you started because you did not like the comments you recieved

copy of Kevins reply email available, PM me

Fellow SEOs, please do not stoop to this level.

"D" is entitled to his own opinion, as much as I disagree with it--quite ludicrous.

The fact is our SEO skills in practice have earned millions of dollars in additional revenues for our clients. This fact alone should be proof enough that pure SEO is a real and thriving practice/industry. Let "D" try and knock SEO all he wants.

The contest you're proposing is not fitting of a professional SEO; it may actually negatively impact our industry's reputation.

As a long time SEO who's gone through his share of defending our industry, I ask you to simply ignore "D." Continue to do your job making money for your current clients, and educating others about SEO and how it fits into the Marketing mix.

Hey... Do you remember the South Park episode where the kids finally got so sick of Cartman's crap they decided to ignore him? It worked!

he just can't take a hint

Dave P is starting to make me sick. he is like that kid that keeps saying something just for the reason that it pisses you off. Also, he uses the term "SEO bloggers" instead of SEO's to try and minimize who his detractors are. I really cannot stand this any longer, so I had to vent. :p

dmnews.com/cms/dm-news/search-marketing/39894.html

Go Dave!

Yet again, he's right.

While the rest of you all give SEOs a bad name (also, yet again).

huh?

Jill I had heard you were losing it but c'mon you are taking Dave's side on this one?

Threadwatch got coverage in

Threadwatch got coverage in his column and they changed their whole site structure based on the contest. I am content no matter what the outcome of the contest is.

Funny that concept "a link to me is a vote for relevancy" ... perhaps he should have been ranking in the first place and making the results relevant long ago if SEO is a one off event. Unless, of course, he doesn't think he deserves to rank for his own name and needs to beg for links to do so.

Censorship and Aaron Wall

My last post in this thread was deleted notwithstanding the proprietors avowed dislike of censorship which has been made clear in previous threads. Whether or not the subject of this contest has taken up the challenge, it is never the less a pointless excersise which serves absolutely no one in the SEO community.

maybe because your

maybe because your contributions have been so valuable
http://www.threadwatch.org/node/11507#comment-50633
http://www.threadwatch.org/node/11507#comment-50634
http://www.threadwatch.org/node/11507#comment-50635

some people only type for themselves then are pissed when nobody else cares. typing more of the same garbage doesn't make it not rubbish.

Information Please.

So censorship in Threadwatch is now OK is it Aaron?
Please tell us more about your current policy.

DavePasternack.net

Hi

Count me in.

For the fun of it and the $1000 cash reward of course. Here is my Dave site: http://www.davepasternack.net

Please review it and till me what you think.

Censorship card

Bah. Don't pull that crap. It's not censorship, Wall's not the U.S. governement. He can do whatever he likes for the benefit of himself of the blog. And it's called moderation, not 'censorship'.

Besides, you should look at it like a badge of honor. I've been falling down on trying to maintain a 50% deletion policy on the forums I frequent :).

senaia, only three weeks

senaia, only three weeks left in the contest and with a fresh (2/06/07) domain, that will take some skills. Which begs a question with all of Dave's mad SEO knowledge you'd think he would have locked up all the TLDs for his name. It's not like it costs a lot anymore.

Phasers Set to Lame Factor 3

Dave, or someone claiming to be Dave, posted a comment on my blog today and it was even lamer than his article on DMNEWS.

For some reason the guy seems confused and thinks I'm pretending to be him (?) so this obviously isn't a fair fight.

Maybe we should cut him some slack...

Search Engine Optimization Contest

Really interesting contest on search engine optimization. Do keep us updated on the winner :)

regards
Jim

It's funny.

Some "contests" are just too easy to rig

lmao..

Danny.. already reported.... I have a new goal.. get his name banned from Google..

of course, that would also effect his domain name, would it not? :)

ala Seo Inc?

(eg)

SEO - 3 out of 4 rocket scientists don't get it either so why should Dave Pasternack? (he works for a search marketing firm, they should know, right?)

no.. because he is a PPC Twit..

jill whalen

--------------------
Go Dave!
Yet again, he's right.

While the rest of you all give SEOs a bad name (also, yet again).

By Jill at Tue, 2007-02-06 22:24 | reply | top
-------------------------------------------------

the rest of you? are you becoming a PPC twit? or are you doing Dave's organics which is why he has no clue?

p.s. thanks for the 4 clients from the Dallas seminar you did..

This has become more of a witchhunt

Got to say that the contents of this entry have become more and more surreal as time has gone on.

Yes, what Dave has said isn't something I agree with, however this does appear to have become more and more personal, when as an industry, perhaps we should have shown him (and the wider public) that SEO IS something that requires considerable skill and intellect.

As far as Jill's comments were concerned, spot on again

Dave Pasternack bio page dropping, Oilman's page rising

I noticed on a multiple data center rank check this morning that the Dave Pasternack bio page is falling in the rankings, from #2 to # 6. Oilman's Dave Pasternack page has moved up to # 7.

If Pasternack wins, that would be pretty bad don't you think? I'm sure he and his "supporters" would be blogging about how a non-SEO guy beat all the other SEO's in the business regardless of how hard anyone but Pasternack is truly trying..he's the only one spending a bunch of his time trying to build links. To prevent it, how hard would be for a bunch of us to give Todd some links since it look's like he's in the best position to win at this point.

>> a bunch of us to give

>> a bunch of us to give Todd some links

I'm sure Todd can find his own links...

If he needs any more, I think he can likely acquire them himself

We're all discussing this as

We're all discussing this as if we have any control over what shows up where at Google. Have we all forgotten that we only secure placements when Google doesn't care enough to want to get involved. If g wants dave to come up on top, he will and I don't care how many links we "acquire" or what content we write.

If google does not care then we have a shot, BUT that is not a good system to start contests and placing bets against the house with. If they do care, is it possible they might take the time to manually assist the results? If that is possible, what are we trying to prove?

If losing, (or winning as the case may be), an SEO contest makes you look bad, and controlling the contest in reality is nothing more than perception, then maybe some discussion of other ways of being childish and shitty without losing face may be in order for all contest participants.

No?

>> If g wants dave to come

>> If g wants dave to come up on top, he will

But massa, G don't hand edit SERPs, you know that. They've said so, so it must be true

...

Quote:
then maybe some discussion of other ways of being childish and shitty without losing face may be in order for all contest participants.

No, no. This is a perfectly valid way to accomplish that.

get my own links

sure but you'd have to assume I actually care :). I really only put the post up on my blog to see where it would land and I'm pretty suprised hit so high in only a couple weeks. Thanks to HighRank for the support.

I might got find a couple links cuz I could use some extra beer money and winning this thing does seem to be potentially in reach hehehe.

Link for Todd

>> I'm sure Todd can find his own links...

Of course he can but $1,000 is not exactly a big motivating factor and I'm sure he's got better things to do with his time.

I just don't care to hear any other rants from him. I'm sure if he happened to win he'd try to exagerate the situation about how he beat out SEO's in their own contest when in reality he's the only one who'se working hard to try and link build (sitewide links in footers of did-it, dropping as many comments as possible in blog posts, MyBloglog links, etc.)

Oilman or Graywolf

I think either of them have a shot at this point but Oilman obviously has the upper hand for the beer money.

If I were Dave, I'd be more concerned with why Dave Pasternacks bio page isn't showing up in Yahoo and forget this Google contest.

dave pasternack seo contest entry

This is my entry am I correct the only rule is to be #1 March 1st?

dave pasternack

No I am not Dave Pasternack but maybe using the name may give me an advantage.

damn it google

I seem to have fallen out of the contest. Which is actually ok cuz winning with wouldn't have proved anything other than my blog has more authority than did-it.com for dave pasternack. I certainly didn't do any real SEO at all.

Wow oilman

That was a wicked slide, but technorati is ahead with threadwatch and graywolf both on his heels in the top 10. However, the other Dave, the chef, is still dominating the results and I have my doubts that this contest will unseat the celebrity chef.

2 weeks to go...

hmmm

Quote:
I have my doubts that this contest will unseat the celebrity chef.

Doesn't that kinda prove the other Dave's point?

@Jill

Which point would that be out of the myriad of conflicting things he's said in interviews and blog comments all over the place?

Besides, we're on a time constraint, some things take a bit longer to achieve.

If it was so easy, why can't his company even get indexed in Yahoo or why don't they have even have a robots.txt file?

Apparently, it's because they aren't rocket scientists!

Now that Dave Pasternack is

Now that Dave Pasternack is an editor at Threadwatch, with a front-page link to his... ThreadWatch contest page, it gets more interesting.

The Celebrity Chef SEO

Hell, I might just ask him for some SEO tips, he's winning this contest hands down and probably doesn't even know it.
Success comes so easily when you're an expert who knows what to do. He probably charges way to much for me to afford just like all the other cutting edge SEO guys.

Chef Dave is so cool

I think it's cool that Chef Dave is not only a chef, but a rocket scientist AND obviously an SEO!

Todd shows his stuff

I see Oilman in #1 as of this morning.

I still can't believe you're running this

The new posts here brought me back to this thread. I can't believe this is still being run.

I really want to crossreference the assholes participating in this contest with the list of assholes who whine about outing. I bet they're pretty much the same list. Not surprising the ones who complain about it stupidly and the loudest, are the first one's to jump on the community bandwagon. Both are pretty good indicators of personalities I don't want to be associated with. And if you don't think this is about outing, you're simple.

In addition to the personal attacks that have been posted here (fine suggestions like people should post his personal info online) has anyone thought about what happens if this guy's company doesn't win - as is likely to happen? Aaron, you get to be personally responsible for the most reprehensible case of 'outing' I've ever seen.

Sure this guy made some comments. But by creating a contest that he's bound to lose, you've now tarred his company publicly. There's a world of difference between letting someone's own comments stand publicly, and publicly humiliating someone's company. Yeah, blahblahblah it's not intended to do that. Except clearly it was. The fact is, this guy was personally chosen by threadwatch to get a community thrashing and a public humilation. If that wasn't the original intent, it's clearly the case now.

I've done my share of bashing, heck, it builds the community. But there's again a huge difference between starting a thread on someone and a community forum offering a $1000 prize to do so.

Peronally, I don't build my business by shitting all over the competition. And I don't like to hang people that build their business by shitting all over the competition. Since that's clearly what this community has deteriorated into - management AND the participants - I'm outa here as long as this trailer park business ethics stuff continues.

@wheel

If you want to call someone an asshole, try looking a little harder at the little brown ring with the big mouth that started this mess.

I've never gotten involved in any of this crap before, but this time not only did they shoot their fat mouths off but they played the cancer charity card to entice OTHER people to do their SEO work for them.

If they're gonna mouth off about SEO, they should at least do the work themselves to prove it's so fucking simple.

So Jill, will you now

tell your potential clients that this SEO stuff isnt rocket science when you give them your proposal that includes a 5 figure fee?

lmao...

wheeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

all i have to say is "crabs"

heh heh..

Person vs Company

There's a world of difference between letting someone's own comments stand publicly, and publicly humiliating someone's company.

Wheel, you're a little off base this time.

If ThreadWatch provided the tar, Did-it supplied all the feathers.

I think you're pointing the finger at the wrong trailer park this time as Aaron just put his money where Dave's mouth was. The boys at Did-it are fully invested in this circus right on their own website.

When Kevin Lee chimed in it had already gone beyond Dave Pasternack and onto the company. Then Did-it posted about it on their company blog, and made t-shirts for sale on Cafe Press to profit off the fiasco. Heck, even their marketing manager was involved with the t-shirts according to Kevin Lee's blog. Then the company website posted asking other people to "vote for relevance" when it appears they figured out SEO was a bit harder than Dave was publicly stating.

The fact is that their company is obviously involved at this point and the statements Dave made about the SEO industry opened themselves up for scrutiny regarding their own SEO skills.

That's hardly OUTING...

OUTING is when you go after someone that is sitting quietly on the sidelines minding their own business which is blatantly not the case here.

You betcha

Quote:
tell your potential clients that this SEO stuff isnt rocket science when you give them your proposal that includes a 5 figure fee?

Absolutely. I've been telling them that from the very start, and will always, always, always continue to do so.

You guys can play with your smoke and mirrors all you want if it makes you feel smart.

Jill I Agree

The stuff you tell your potential clients isn't rocket science.

Oilman is #1 on Google

I had to check it twice to make sure I wasn't seeing things.

My hero.

BTW, you might want to give Dave Pasternack a call, he could probably use your services about now ;)

Hope you can hang on for 2 weeks!

EDIT: That was only in some data centers, I seen oilman at #5 in others. Hopefully he'll be #1 when the update completes. Dammit Google!

SEO isn't Rocket Science??

Don't know why everyone's saying that SEO isn't rocket science...Anyway this ought to be fun, I wonder if someone can just join in the rankings and climb to the top before the contest ends? ;p

The National Enquirer (a "Master of Bait" tactics) Can Be "Fun"

I respect Kevin Lee's book knowledge (Yale) and experience with PPC. However, when his partner DP, who I met in person a long time ago, said some things (probably with Kevin's upfront knowledge) that I believe were "bait" done out of motives of pure publicity (IMO), he went too far. Sometimes "good common sense" does not come with an ivy league degree. Kevin and Dave probably believe in the "old school" cliche that "There is no such thing as bad publicity". This can sometimes backfire on the "bait instigators", as well as the people who take the bait.

Just ask the National Enquirer who today has posted on their home page this apology:

"On May, 23, 2005 we published an article in our magazine and on our website entitled “Cameron Caught Cheating.” That article was accompanied by photographs which purported to show Ms. Diaz, who at the time was dating Justin Timberlake, kissing Shane Nickerson, a married man. We have subsequently been informed, and accept that, the relevant incident involved nothing more than Ms. Diaz giving a friend a good bye hug and accept that there is no question of a romantic relationship between Ms. Diaz and Mr. Nickerson. We are happy to set the record straight and apologize to Ms. Diaz and to Mr. Nickerson and his family for any distress caused." - http://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebrity/63780

While DP didn't get a "photo" of SEO not being "rocket science", maybe he should have taken a photo of all the good things that SE sanctioned SEO really is, and why end-user searchers still prefer the oganic results to the PPC ads (I don't think a retraction and apology by DP are forthcoming). I do think that this "baiting" thing has gotten out of hand like it has been for a while in the grocery register tabloids. IMO, it ain't helping the overall
reputation of the search marketing industry when it comes to prospective buyer's opinions.

No smoke or mirrors

I just dont understand why you think DP isnt referring to you as well.

SEMPO Board Member Needs "Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy"

The main "smoke" in this "baiting" thing is the fact that most search marketing buyers who read all this stuff don't know that Kevin, his partner, and their SEM company are associated with SEMPO. SEMPO's mission statement says "Our purpose is to provide a foundation for industry growth through building stronger relationships, fostering awareness, providing education, promoting the industry, generating research, and creating a better understanding of search and its role in marketing."

Kevin and his partner need to be cognitive of the fact that their behavior needs therapy (Ironically, Kevin's wife provides this professional service). PPC vs. SEO is not "building stronger relationships", "fostering (positive) awareness, providing (100% accurate) education, promoting the (entire Paid and Organic Search) industry, generating (consturctive) research, and creating a better (clear and easily comprehendable) understanding of search and its (proper and true) role in marketing.

but who's credibility do they rip at more?

their own?
or the joke that is SEMPO?

All of the above

They have damaged all of the above, theirs, their companies, SEMPOs, it's a clean sweep IMO.

Thanks Greg.

I briefly mentioned here that there could be collateral damage, but it fell on deaf ears.

Lee Odden noticed the same

Lee Odden noticed the same prediction dated back to 2005
http://toprank.blogspot.com/2007/01/dave-pasternack-seo-predictions-in.html

Fix it March 2

You're right about the collateral damage, but that this point I would say wait about 2 weeks, let the contest complete, THEN fix the damage.

Seriously, after all these weeks another 10 days won't matter much in the grand scheme of things as Dave Pasternack the Chef is winning anyway ;)

Dave Pasternack: Google Bounty Hunt

Well guys, I wanted to use the competition as a test for some techniques I have been trying out never having taken part in an SEO competition.

It turns out that with the six stages below you can get onto page 1 (position 9 at present):

1. Six hours work to produce a site in notepad (content, structure and optimisation)
2. Less than 10 post on blogs
3. Submission of a few strategic entries in content tagging sites
4. Four links from low PR sites
5. No link campaign
6. No key word specific URL

I did most of that about 3 weeks ago, left the site as it was. Google initially listed it about position 60-70. I checked back 2 days ago and it is on page 1, there was no ongoing optimisation etc.

I conclude from this exercise that perhaps SEO isnt as much work as I have put into it in the past - the hard work comes from the time and effort put in to learn the techniques rather than the implementation of those techniques.

The entry will not get to number one by March I am certain, but equally it has had a lot less effort put in Im sure than Mr Pasternack's which is only 2 places above it ;)

Dave Hodgson
Entry At: Dave Pasternack

I conclude from this exercise that perhaps SEO isnt as much work

perhaps you should conclude that ranking for a supremely non competitive keyphrase isn't much work.

btw - i put 1 minute into my entry

Misquote: I conclude from this excercise

Oilman, my conclusion wasnt that it isnt much work - simply not as much work as I used to put in; the key word being I.

My point was more that most of the time/effort put in is in learning the skills rather than applying them.

In answer to your entry - you did not spend one minute on it, you already had a well read and distributed blog; on which you posted.

The blog main page has a PR of 6 already; you didnt throw the site together in 1 minute...rather it is the work of a prolonged period of time on whose regular readership/subscribers you were able to rely for readership.

The site I mention above was nothing more than a holding environment/development URL hence why I was surprised to see it on page one in such a short period of time.

In regard to the competitiveness of the word - it is true the number of sites are limited, however 100,000 of them have been added since this competition started and many come from big sites so there is an element of healthy competition there.

Dave

Here is my entry for the contest

Currently running in position 20 or so, my entry for the Dave Pastarnack contest.

In regard to the

Quote:
In regard to the competitiveness of the word - it is true the number of sites are limited, however 100,000 of them have been added since this competition started and many come from big sites so there is an element of healthy competition there.

I can't let that stand in the archives as it is.

A few pages of keyword rich content with outbound linking that ranks after several weeks is not a competitive site. A search term with 100,000 new pages in Google is not an SEO competitive search term, in the commercial sense. In fact, this is exactly what a lot of the SEO haters mistakenly believe to be SEO. Quick execution of basic stuff on a non-competitive term, to get to page one.

A primary reason why SEO is misunderstood: one of the highest profile SEO activities in existence is the "SEO contest" where what is proclaimed, tested, and exhalted is more social media than SEO.

Announcing a new SEO contest: whomever is ranking #1 for the highest percentage of the time, in the three major search engines, over the next 12 months, for the search term "vacuum cleaner parts". The prize? 50% of the net profits from that traffic, as converted by Steve McArthur's Vacuum cleaner parts website http://www.vacuumpartsmall.com/info.html. The only requirement is that your page not actually sell vacuum cleaner parts (conflict of interest), and that you send all garnered traffic to Steve's site the whole time.

Now that would be an SEO contest.

Disclaimer: I don't know Steve, nor do I have any connection with Steve nor his hoovering activities. He's just a vacuum cleaner salesman turned SEO that I like to use as an example, and he doesn't seem to mind.

Ooops.

did-it back at #1.

It would seem that Todds and

It would seem that Todds and Gregs sites are still showing as 2 seperate entities, which would also mean that the links to Todds page are not yet being counted fully towards Gregs page. Give it a few days :)

301

It's now become a test of google's ability to follow a 301 and update the serps. We may actually get something valuable out of watching that.

Yep, JA

Quote:
A few pages of keyword rich content with outbound linking that ranks after several weeks is not a competitive site. A search term with 100,000 new pages in Google is not an SEO competitive search term, in the commercial sense. In fact, this is exactly what a lot of the SEO haters mistakenly believe to be SEO. Quick execution of basic stuff on a non-competitive term, to get to page one.

John Andrews is right (as usual). This seems to be lost on so many SEO Types.

Too late to join in??

With only 4 days to go will my addition of this seo contest http://odproject.org/seo/contests/dave-pasternack.html make it to the number one spot? :)

Google is now seeing the 301

Google is now seeing the 301 properly it appears and Greg is now in the #1 slot.

Danny thats to funny

wonder if he has a D_pasternack page to :)

Dave

Dave P

doesn't think much of the 'collaboration' of Oilman & Greg with the 301.

http://www.ppcblog.co.uk/seo/dave-pasternack-seo-contest-one-week-left/

Yesterday came in on #17

Yesterday came in on #17 in Google with dave pasternack, probably with all those 301s holding at the #1, I´m a bit late.. But still in the game.. :)

"The Real" Dave Pasternack stood up...

...and whoever wrote his ppc ad is a genius - very nice work.

This ad?

Hungry Rocket Scientists?
I don't know SEO but I know my food
taste better than a foot in a mouth
www.Esca-NYC.com

Aha. It appears that Chef Dave Pasternack is indeed with the Esca restaurant in NYC.
http://www.clubcorp.com/celebchef/chef_PasternackD.htm

[Unlink if you wish]

I love it

Collateral damage or a bunch of new SEO patrons at his restaurant?

Maybe the real Dave Pasternack engineered the whole thing from behind the scenes to target a whole new segment of customers :) There are a lot of us here in NY and SES is right around the corner...

Boser's Pasternack Page Hit With the New Google -2 Penalty

The minus 30 penalty, the minus 950 penalty and now the brand new -2 penalty. What a bummer. 30 minutes to go and Boser's page is at # 3. At least Pasternack didn't win.

Gregs page is #1 here. look

Gregs page is #1 here. look around mcdar.net/dance/ Greg won hands down.

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