SEO Class - New York, New York!


The small, hands-on workshop with 'celebrity SEOs' seems to have a lot of traction. Today, Michael Gray announced SEO Class, to be held in New York City!

I’ve been working with Jeremy, Rae, Todd, and Greg on this project since early January. SEO Class is going to be a small scale personalized hands-on workshop that will be given in New York several times a year. To help kick our project off we’re announcing a free seminar for non-profit and charitable organizations. The free seminar is limited to 30 organizations and a maximum of three people per group. So why is it free and what’s the catch? Well we know charities are on a limited budget and can’t always afford to send people to conferences or hire consultants so this gives us an opportunity to help people who are doing good for the community. Second we hope the folks who come like it so much they’ll be willing give us a nice recommendation. Lastly because you’re wondering there won’t be any sales pitches during the conference.

Looks awesome guys, great speakers, and great location...

Check out the official site:


Elite Retreat etc now dead?

So has Shoe bailed on the whole Elite Retreat idea now then?

Not Dead

This is separate from Elite Retreat.

Why would you want to pay to

Why would you want to pay to sit there and listen to Shoemoney anyway? What does he actually offer to anyone... other than dreams. His blog is mostly centered on bigging himself up and putting down other companies. I can't see what value he actually offers or what real knowledge he has.

Like quite recently he played hard done by for being banned from mybloglog. I'm sorry, they're meant to let you continue exploiting their service and encouraging others to do so? It's these exact actions that can cause a service to fail because of user insecurity. If he really wanted to help them out then he would have just contacted them directly rather than showing off on his blog. Especially since they were kind enough to let him play his little games on their site. Ironically, I was banned from the Shoemoney blog when I attempted to post a comment of similar content to this.

Go to his blog and learn... how he started... how much money he makes... what his favourite colour is... how much money he makes... Okay, not much value really is there. Oh but every now and then he will give a review on a service that he thinks you should check out... oh that's right, he's making something on the side from it. (Oh hey guys, LET ME HELP *YOU*. This is how you sell ringtones... DING DING DING $$$$$, I can get some more shoemoney shirts now)

He has common sense and determination, but I don't see any solid SEO advice.

I can name a few sites of the top of my head which provide much more valuable information and in my mind would be better people to be paying than shoemoney if you wanted to advance your SEO.

Spamhuntress - Rarely updated now days since she started a new project but none the less you will pickup little tips here and there about tactics other blackhats are using.

Bluehat SEO - Although not the newest ideas, he puts a great twist on things which sometimes you just wouldn't think of.

David Naylor - Can be a bit slow to blog about SEO tactics and tends to use his blog to have a good moan but he does throw good information out there and has released a few scripts for people to play with.

Seo Idiot - Posts some rather random stuff but does a good job of syndicating/rewriting information on different SEO bits and bobs. Happy to share what he has picked up and throw it out there for people to use.

Jensense - Goes to a lot of effort to provide information to people. Detailed and high quality posts.

I could go on and on. I'm not trying to say I could do better than Shoemoney, but I do think people would be wasting their money. They'd be paying for the label.

< / pawn >

Non SEO stuff maybe?

Bearing in mind Shoemoney makes a load of cash and claims to not worry about SEO maybe he will be talking about how to make a load of cash without knowing much about SEO?

Something I am sure the non-seos at this event will find very useful.

Umm possibly. I can't say I

Umm possibly. I can't say I have really seen much of this on his blog... To me he's nothing more than a confident car sales man with a bit of common sense. Maybe I'm missing something?

Seem like a good fit to me

once you have you traffic you want to make the most of it i.e. turning it into cash that's what shoemoney seems to be very good at.

There are people who do and there are people who don't do

Shoemoney might not blog play by plays on how he makes his money but it's great for motivation, yes you can make money! and i'm sure he's helped a lot of people become one of the people who do.

Whether you personally rate

Whether you personally rate Shoemoney as an SEO type (and AFAIK, he's always been more closely aligned to PPC) isn't really the issue. In fact, if he's made outrageous sums of money WITHOUT knowing SEO, then he's DEFINITELY someone worth listening to.

He's also only a small %age of the crew here. Todd, Greg, Rae and Michael know a few bits and bobs about SEO between them...

I don't think I'm making

I don't think I'm making myself clear. You raise valid points that he is generally not that interested in SEO but rather other methods of generating money online such as playing the PPC system. However, I havn't actually ever seen him give out any useful advice in any more detail than you'd get from a 14 year old kid who just started getting into the business. He has built a strong label but I don't think that's all it is. Considering how self centered he is, I can't see that he's really gonna actually give out any good information. Yes he can motivate and yes he can make money. But can he advise others in depth, better than anyone with some common sense?.. I don't think so, no.

My comments don't relate specifically to this new event, just Shoemoney in general.

To be fair, I do think that shoemoney can be an alright guy at times. But at other times he just seems to damn arrogant to me.

There plenty of useful

There plenty of useful information to be had on there. The secret to reading his blog is to ignore anything he writes that isn't about making money.

I have picked up lots of great tips from that blog. His 10k experiment, reading about what he does, etc.. its all solid information if you analyze it. Does he give out 10 steps to becoming a millionaire ? No. Is there useful information in his post for those that care to investigate it ? Yes.

Ironic, actually - in the

Ironic, actually - in the New Year I figured on setting up something to deliver free SEO services for charities. I got as far as registering a couple of domains, then got sucked into client work before I could set anything up.

Best Advice That I Learned From Shoemoney...

Arrow-Shaped AdWords Ads

I have used the "arrow" shaped AdWords ads with tremendous results. Simple yet powerful, and no way would I have thought about this on my own.

Little nuggets like this can generate tremendous ROI.

unqualified bashing...

I know this is a forum where people can speak their minds, unmoderated, but isn't this just a tiny bit beyond the pale?

I mean - these folx are doing something admirable here. They're helping out non-profit groups for free.

Sure, they get a little self-promo out of the deal, but this is still pretty altruistic. Attacks on the participants in this are in poor form.

Sure, Shoemoney states readily that he doesn't really do SEO. But its undeniable that he has some nicely elegant and effective skills behind the scenes. What many non-profits need are better ways of promoting themselves and getting more donor revenue. If Shoemoney applied his skills towards maximizing donations for nonprofits, what would be the result? If I were a nonprofit, I'd like to hear his thoughts on the matter.

It's easier to destroy than create. Lay off the man for taking the time to donate his time to nonprofits.

As for the classes beyond the free seminar for nonprofits, most of us might be willing to admit that paid marketing programs need to be coordinated with natural search optimization, so he's validly useful to have on hand for that.

Not to mention, he's quite skilled at landing page optimization -- something that applies well to natural search optimization needs.

{disclosure: I'm not friends with him or anything, but I just say don't bash just for the sake of bashing.}

The truth is in this

The truth is in this industry I am a total newbie (blogging and seo) . What I write on my blog is experiences as I learn. Most of the readers of threadwatch are far more advanced in seo and probably even SEM then I will ever be.

Esrun and others take shots at me. Thats cool... whatever ;)

You do make me laugh Jeremy.

You do make me laugh Jeremy. It's so easy to game people and you have the skills to do so, it feels so ironic to me that people are so simple that they can't pick up on it but hey :) I think you have realised there is a bit of a spread of bad press on you recently, this isn't a coincidence. Lets see if you're smart enough to work out the full picture :)

I personally couldn't care less, now days I prefer to just sit back and chuckle at whats going on but every now and then things do get my back up and I like to vent. Like when you banned me from your blog for criticising your actions. But hey, this is the real world; you need to moderate your blog to create an image of celebrity status and loving users.

Esrun actually i blocked all

Esrun actually i blocked all your comments in hopes you would blog/talk more about my blog. wasirite?

You did nothing but

You did nothing but reinforce my certain pet hates for you...*edit removed*

You can play as many games as you want and try and change everything said into a positive thing for yourself, I have said my bit. Game over from myself.

awe first you said you were

awe first you said you were having fun laughing now you talk of hate... cmon lets get along =)


As per my above post. Good luck :)

wow you edit all your posts

wow you edit all your comments so many times and so fast I dunno how to respond lol..

The bottom line is you have never met me and yet you attack me in person. The funny thing is I am a horrible writter but a much better oral communicator. I struggle and hate to write.

Also I am not a seo, I have never sold seo services, every seo lead I get I send to Aaron Wall or Greg boser...

Hopefully we meet in person someday then you will have some grounds to know what your talking about.


Hey esrun I'm listening and hearing what you're saying.

I know you only by handle, and a few comments made about you by people like MC etc, but I don't think Shoe is the guy to make an SEO tactics blog (and I don't think he tries to). I agree the SEO Class group could position Jeremy a bit better in the "promotional literature" for SEO Class, but I am also willing to bet they will now :-)

Seriously, they just launched it and there are quality people on there so natch they will tune it as the market requires.

I have a blog where I write about seo stuff and I am genuinely interested in crafting it towards what you say is better than what you say Shoemoney has. Seriously... in your mind should SEO people give away SEO tactics on public blogs? Is that what makes a blog worthy? I don't see how giving away "secrets" is smart, but of course one needs to be able to communicate without giving away too much, no?

I guess I'm asking what's right? Your cited a blog that isn't updated, Bluehat (which I like also), DaveN (duh), and SEO Loser (not sure he's earned much authority yet). Are you promoting your crew, or is there an ideal you envision?

I hate all this profile

I hate all this profile building, mutual seo masturbation and announcing of a new seo conference that you can attend for only a few grand. It makes me chuckle too what is going on with the "seo rockstars".

E.G....Hey I see < insert known SEO who asked you to plug it> has a conference, I think it would be a great op for them to make a bundle of cash for doing sweet FA and getting pissed in the evening after you have gone through well documented techiques.

If you really need the help, much better taking up an SEO one on one for specifics on your site or area IMO.

I hate all this profile

I hate all this profile building, mutual seo masturbation

Does get a bit tiresome :)
TW needs a friends and family category

Nice post John Andrews

I am happy to vouch for having met esrun - decent SEO with some good understanding of our buisness. (Copenhagen for those who were there)

I think his basic criticism of Shoemoney(Jeremy) being cited as a lead SEO for an SEO class is fundamentally correct - I've great respect for Jeremy as an SEM, and know I could learn a lot from him on the PPC aspects of SEM (and probably some other areas such as conversions and usability too).

As John Andrews says the way Jeremy is presented at the start of this thread, doesn't do him justice or justice to the way he is presented on the SEO Class site (which if esrun had taken the time to read in detail might have tempered some of his posts).

Andy Hagans - please take this bitch slap in the positive way in which it is intended - when you do PR/Marketing to fellow professionals please do it as professionally as possible. In this case you have not only allowed people to misinterpret the agenda of your speakers (c.f esrun) but also failed to focus on (IMHO the biggest USP you have) the fact that the first SEOClass is free to charity SEOs in order to prove the format.

I think you guys are trying

I think you guys are trying to split hairs. Esruns pretty clear he thinks Shoes a narcicist windbag in his first post. Esrun care to clarify ?


>>>I think his basic criticism of Shoemoney(Jeremy) being cited as a lead SEO for an SEO class is fundamentally correct

Actually, Jeremy was cited as a leading Internet marketer, not a leading SEO. If you check the agenda, you'll see we are touching on paid search marketing, technical setup and tools - all of which Jeremy has a great knowledge of and all topics Jeremy thought he could make a valuable contribution to charities on.

However, since it appears people are only reading the presenters page without checking the agenda to see the full realm of topics covered, we've added a line to each presenters bio stating what they'll be covering.

>>>I agree the SEO Class group could position Jeremy a bit better in the "promotional literature" for SEO Class, but I am also willing to bet they will now

Yep, we hope that covers it now. ;-)

I'm not simple...

It's so easy to game people and you have the skills to do so, it feels so ironic to me that people are so simple that they can't pick up on it but hey

This is truly rich! I've never been described as "simple" in my entire life. My family would laugh until they blew chunks if they heard someone describe me thus.

I haven't been 'gamed', either.

Geeeeez! The IRONY is that a guy who seems to like keeping his identity obscured is critizing someone for promoting themselves on their own website and elsewhere! Huh? Why shouldn't someone promote themselves to the nth degree on their own site if they want to?!? It would only be laughable if it wasn't effective. Further, do you realize you've just admitted that he's skilled at online promotion? The irony is indeed thick, but not where you perceive it to be...

esrun, it seems pretty transparent that you've just got a personal beef with Shoemoney, so you're just trying to hurt him in any way possible. (The frequent, whiny references to getting banned from his site would be a big clue.) It comes off as sounding childish and frankly, jealous. After all, the greatest insult to promotional efforts is to simply ignore them.

Don't devolve off into trying to insult everyone who may read his blog or ask him for a t-shirt. You're only undermining your own credibility if you call someone like me simple or stupid, for instance -- that's a classically weak ploy of someone who's failing to make a valid argument via logic and rhetoric. You don't know all of us who might read his blog, and you can't hope to fathom our motives in doing so. Therefore, you simply don't have enough evidence to judge any of us.

Once again, I'm not one of his friends, nor am I hypnotized by promotional efforts into being a zombie fan of anyone. I would doubt that Jeremy's devoted fans are all that simple, either.

Charity is always a good cause

But you have to wonder what's behind it. Most of the people involved are well known for self promotion and mutual promotion.

Guys if you really want to do something for charity, why not give some of your huge wads to it? No need to tell anyone about it either. If you insist on donating your services to charity because you think SEO will help them, why beat the drum about it? You can do that in private.

spot on

your absolutly spot on with your comment SlyOldDog, from movie stars to the average person living on your street, people who do charity work dont even talk about it they just get on and do it

Hey just remember you're all

Hey just remember you're all spammers, so stop bitching and moaning and get back to



Let's go back to the

Let's go back to the original post - a bunch of people of unqualified success in their business fields are offering free services for charities.

Anyone thinks this thread is an opportunity for character assassination should really take it elsewhere.

Hey Brian

Threadwatch is a discussion board. I'll say what I please and the mods can remove it if they think it's defamation.

In my opinion charity is about selflessness, not self promotion.

My company donated a % profits to charity and I didn't announce it on our web page.

Anyone who tries to profit from free publicity associated with charity work is a bum as far as I am concerned, which is exactly what is happening here as evidenced by the paid sessions which follow the charity work.


>>>Anyone who tries to profit from free publicity associated with charity work is a bum as far as I am concerned.

Sometimes it amazes me the assumptions that are made about people. We were doing a paid conference either way... we figured we could help some non-profits along the way. I for one had a very personal reason I was happy to do a non-profit event first. You're also assuming - no, almost accusing - the people involved in this don't already donate money or time to charity...

>>>No need to tell anyone about it either

Then how do you suggest we *get* the charity organizations that could use our help to the event if we don't tell anyone about it.

God people. Seriously. Five people step up and cover the cost of the venue, snacks, take homes, supplies - and not to mention that two of the five are not local and are paying to fly themselves in and stay at a hotel - plus their time and all the planning that is involved, and we get called bums for it?

Sometimes I get disappointed by this industry. Sigh.

I don't see ...

I don't see what the problem is.

They're known in the industry; it's an event; it's news.

Is there some other site where events should announced so that we can ensure that TW is lacking in industry news?

SlyOldDog, I was especially

SlyOldDog, I was especially referring to the early comments about Shoemoney. Completely irrelevant to the topic.

As for providing SEO services to charity - nothing wrong with publicising it. You're providing cash, they're providing skills - but how will anyone know such a service exists without communicating it?

>>God people. Seriously.

>>God people. Seriously. Five people step up and cover the cost of the venue, snacks, take homes, supplies - and not to mention that two of the five are not local and are paying to fly themselves in and stay at a hotel - plus their time and all the planning that is involved, and we get called bums for it?

Ok, so I shouldn't have said it like that. I feel quite strongly about people who use charity for self promotion. Richard Branson is a good example - he really makes me mad. My apologies if you genuinely just added the free date as a benevolent afterthought and not as the core of the program.

Not all charities are equal. Some are good and some are plain bad. One in my building is just plain nasty and takes every freebie going whether it's helping the beneficiaries or not. I'd suggest writing to charities you like who obviously have not SEOed their pages and offering the service direct.

Sly, I see what you're

Sly, I see what you're saying and am always torn on the topic. I'm not a big fan of that type of marketing. Pedigree is a good example with their new commercial that gets to just about any dog lover. But on the other hand, something good is being done for a charity that otherwise might not be done. The whole Product(Red) nonsense is another example of profiting from charity.

So in a perfect world, people would not need financial incentive to be charitable. But in our society, that is not always an option. I personally don't mind it as long as the charity is being helped. I just don't like it when companies act like the main incentive is charitable when in fact it's just a sly marketing tactic.

I am not an altruist - but transparency and win/win is good

>In my opinion charity is about selflessness, not self promotion.

I totally agree - and I don't think the group is trying to necessarily represent this as charity.

1. We want to polish the material that will be used for the paid version so there is better ROI for attendees
2. Doing a free event helps to promote the paid one and accomplish the above
3. It helps some folks that are more altruistic than I (folks that work for non-profits) along the way.

I am not claiming to be an complete altruist - only a good capitalist that understands that win/win situation are the best, and transparency in such matters makes the type of hate displayed in this thread sting a bit less. It's not like we've at all tried to hide the above three points. We are doing self-promotion - I have done plenty of it in my life, and I always try to keep it positive where it is helpful, and doesn't take advantage of anyone.

I've had my fair share of skepticism that bordered on cynicism - and when I do, I generally find it easier to step away from the keyboard rather than ranting and raving when I may not have the full story. Stuff like having people accuse me of hacking my own site for links stings a little bit, and reminded me just how important humility can be, and that self promotion better have some value behind it, or folks are just going to accuse you of being an egomaniac. While a good rant may be entertaining - at the end of the day, it's pretty petty, and just plain bad business. No matter who's head is on the chopping block tomorrow - please consider it a little before pushing post on your next response.

Can we please guide this a bit back on topic? I think overall this will be a very positive event with high return for attendees of both the free and paid version.

I may even add "online community diplomacy" as a topic.

Yeah, I remember in the

Yeah, I remember in the hacked thread posting thoughts aloud, then realising I was being a jerk and needed a good cup of STFU.

IMO disagreeing with someone is one issue, but anything that could be read as calling into question someone's character crosses a line that you either justify or step back from, hence why I needed to apologise.

As for free SEO for charities - it's a great idea, no argument.

There is always more than

There is always more than way to skin a cat, SlyOldDog. It's always tough to know which "charities" are ones you want to back. I saw the offer as a way to solicit charities beyond those that the organizers already had in mind.

If I were one of the decision makers though, I would not just blindly open it up on a first come first serve basis. I would require some sort of submission, review and approval process. At the very least I would solicit candidates from those in the web community you already know and trust to some degree. I saw this as an attempt to do just that, as most charities are probably not going to stumble across this on their own.

It's nice to see something constructive and positive come out of the SEO community after all the recent crap that has been at the forefront of the conversation, even in this thread.

Win Win

I think it is an outstanding idea to use the initial event to help non-profits / charities while at the same time fine tuning your program. WIN WIN. I know this for certain..... Having known some of the people involved for many years now, they are people of REAL character. Having some trolls pontificate as to what the motives might be is disheartning but not particularly surprising. This is the interweb after all.

There are many ways to ...

... donate to Charity, Time/Money/Expertise/etc, and they all have their benefits.

In this instance, doing SEO for a Charity would be a one-time action that would probably need continual refinement, and the Charities themselves would not be learning

However, Teaching a Charity about SEO means they can apply their newfound knowledge for time to come, and the individuals concerned would also have an increased knowledge-base that could be used elsewhere. Kinda like teaching them to fish.

And what better way to find charities to whom to donate their time/knowledge than to publicise the event? Sorry, with all due respect, I'm not sure what the challenge is.


>If I were one of the decision makers though, I would not just blindly open it up on a first come first serve basis. I would require some sort of submission, review and approval process.

Yes we are reviewing the charities to make sure they are "legitimate". So silly things like "Fred's Plasma TV Fund" get nixed off the bat, as will other's who aren't up to snuff. It's not about just filling up empty seats with warm bodies.

The more I look

at this the more I like the "charity for charity" concept and dont see why it has to be a one time event. As Woz said - "Teach Them To Fish" - get a good sponsor like TLA whose services would help non-profits drive traffic, take advantage of the economy of scale, and do it in conjunction with every subsequent event by setting aside a few openings for non-profits. You'll always have the naysayers no matter what you do, but so what. It certainly would set you apart.

one time

>>>dont see why it has to be a one time event

Actually, that was never the plan. We just didn't see the need to announce it, as we didn't think us doing "one" would be seen as a bad thing we'd have to defend. ;-) I had said early on I was totally behind doing a non profit seminar, but I didn't want it to be a one time thing. How we'd handle it in the future (seats at a regular class, a pure non profit class every year, whatever) was something we needed to discuss after we saw how the first two went in forms of details.

I think it's a great way to

I think it's a great way to exract value out of practice, especially when you have a variety show panel like you guys have. Iron out the kinks, yes, but why waste the rehearsals? And there are many quality non-profits who will benefit from attending.

HOWEVER, I would suggest you establish a vetting process for the non-profits who apply (yes, that's work). The obvious first requirement is mandatry 501(c)3 IRS designation. You might be surprised how many "non-profits" don't actually operate as legal NPO's, lost their status due to "pending issues", or "haven't completed the paperwork yet". Second is the issue of personal inurement (using an NPO status for personal benefit). That one gets personal for you guys, as you really won't appreciate helping someone for free when they she takes home more than gets to any actual "cause", or when she works for slave wages as part of a team supporting senior execs taking home 7 figure salaries and dining with (insert your least favorite politcal party here) leadership.

And of course, to be fair, you should probably vote on who gets picked from the qualified applicants, and I would suggest you use a Board of Advisors for that voting process (might be a good excuse to recruit a board of advisors, even an ad-hoc one). If this is all too much hassle, just start with one elimination criteria: the registered domicile of the 501(c)3 entity must be within 100 miles of your seminar location.

Anyone who thinks any of this organization stuff is easy has probably never taken the risk themselves or bothered to try. As for me, I am enjoying watching to see which of the partners steps up to manage the public face :-)

kiss my white irish ass

the simple reality is that these people are able to start a conference session because they have, over the years, established a lot of brand equity. not only have they been hip-deep in the industry, they've given back to the community.

i respect people like greg, rae, todd and michael precisely because they're busy, yet still make time to contribute via WmW, blogs, TW, podcasts, you name it.

they give back. and they have for years. they have helped *you* be more successful at your job. and you know this.

so kiss my white irish ass.

faux flamebait who'll be

faux flamebait

who'll be doing that seminar?

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