Quote of the Day: TW is Anti-Google

47 comments

Your Daily Reading List...

There's just one problem though – for the most part (and especially Nick W), Threadwatch and its authors are anti-Google.

Muhahahahaha....

Comments

But at least TW features

But at least TW features ahead of Matt's blog. Take heart :)

Anti-Google? TW features

Anti-Google? TW features google more than any other engine ;) more yahoo news please ;)

SEO Elite Questions

Question 1. With this on the market why is TW offering Web CEO, when SEO Elite is on the market???

Question 2. Is the Aaron Wall connected with this site the same Aaron Wall that we know and love at SEO Book???

sameish person

and love? wow...hehehe...I think that is a different one then ;)

um yeah...back before I had too many sales and when his site was pretty new (without a sales letter anywhere near that strong / hyped...in fact his original copywriter originally told him that he liked the stuff in my salesletter) I sold him rights to like an SEO Book lite / mini version. At the time I did not realize how aggressive he was going to market or that there would be free SEO Book banners up on some sites or that the price point for the throw in book accidentlly would for a while match the price of my book.

I sorta got sick of getting lots of customer support questions from people who said they never bought my book because they thought they already got it with SEO Elite. Live and learn.

Although Brad does recommend my ebook on his forums I think the same price point probably ended up costing me more than a few thousand dollars.

I don't think Brad is a bad person, just an exceptionally aggressive marketer. Nothing wrong with making money so long as your not ripping people off. People can spend money donating to charities or do other cool stuff with it.

Although I wonder why I am not on the list of recommended blogs if Brad comments on my site with stuff like nice post and thanks for sharing?

I bet Matt doesn't think your anti Google Nick. :)

I dont' think im anti-google

I dont' think im anti-google either. Im just anti dickheads.

When google are good, they're GREAT, but when they're dickheads, i'll happily say it.

Doesn't make me anti Google, and mat and I are on pretty good terms these days :)

:)

mat and I are on pretty good terms these days :)

as noted by the recent Yahoo! coverage ;)

you know, sometimes it's

you know, sometimes it's hard to find somethign shitty to say about yahoo, and i do try hehe..

Heather has a bone to pick with them i think, and it appears to be a good point. But Y! have been on a roll for a long time now... particularly the Search team..

and I for sure

and I for sure am not anti-google. If it is on his daily reading list, that last sentence just does not make sense.

Aaron..

Thanks for the clarification.

Shows I read the small print on sites. I couldn't figure what was going on there with "Aaron Wall" there, thought it was someone with the same name cashing in on you.

As you say it is agressive marketing there!

Nick took the bait

How to get covered by Threadwatch by Brad Callen / link baiting 101: give em a good wrap then say something controversial or critical.

Sorry Nick but I think you took the bait on this occasion.

I don't mind. Personally i

I don't mind.

Personally i don't think it was linkbait, but if it was, then good on him. It worked.

I think that comment is meant as "no really, we love google, they love us too, you wont get banned for using our software" - not linkbait for me :)

I've never read there, just noticed a few referers and thought it'd make you lot smile, it did me heh..

..

>>>I dont' think im anti-google either. Im just anti dickheads.

You took the words out of my mouth...

There's a difference between

There's a balance between being anti-Google and telling it how it is. I think TW strikes that balance pretty well.

If Google would quit trying to steal my bandwidth

I'd even put AdSense back on my sites. Or at least think about it. But every time they "improve" things, they screw them up even more.

Google Local is almost useless now. Matt, Matt, if you read this, get someone to go back to the old interface!

Not a Google hater but a Callen baiter

You guys aren't being fair to Brad.

I grant you that the one page sales letter site is so annoying that it put me off taking SEO Elite for a test drive for many months.

But at one point, I did sign up for Callen's 7 Days to Massive Website Traffic. Frankly I expected it to be trash - based on the website - but curiosity got the best of me after reading some positive posts about it elsewhere and seeing some of Brad's own posts. 7 Days to Massive Website Traffic turned out to be very good. Of course for all of us here it was a bit simplistic - but sometimes it's good to break things down to basics. The strategies are effective.

He subsequently followed that course with something called SEO Power Strategies. Not absolutely cutting edge but very sound. And there is less marketing chatter in these short missives than in anybody's copy I've seen including Aaron's. Just the straight goods.

And what comes out of all this is a huge desire to help people do SEO better and smarter. Brad even does some very annoying but helpful video demos where he takes you through the steps with personal narration. Laurence Olivier he is not, but he gets the job done. The private forums for SEO Elite (which one can find with a little bit of effort before purchase) are not suitable for this crowd (let's say beginner to intermediate, but Brad is there really helping people do SEO/SEM better and take better advantage of his product.

Sure he wants to take your money but he genuinely wants to help you. It doesn't seem just a front. Take for instance the linked page above. That is a very good list of SEO information resources and quite close to my best list - compiled over the years totally independently. For someone who is new to search, that list with editorial commentary would be invaluable and save months of looking around for the right things to be reading. And that list is part of a free course.

Granted Brad Callen has done some stupid things - Total Optimizer Pro is a catastrophe and priced now at a ludicrous $475 - and something Callen should be deeply ashamed of. While not coming out and admitting the whole story, on his own forums, he has advised people that "SEO Elite is all the software you will need" who've expressed an interest in making the TOP mistake. And TOP is now being pulled from the market - for all I know at Brad Callen's own instigation. He should be very ashamed to have put his name to that tool and to have put it on the market.

Curiously enough, apart from Brad Callen's excellent tutorials, it was Aaron's free Link Analyzer that finally made the sale. It was using Link Analyzer which proved to me the utility of such a tool. But there is no PR check in Link Analyzer. PR with all its limitations often remains an extremely useful gauge of a site/page. If Aaron would put a page rank checker in Link Analyzer, there would be no need for SEO Elite (the backlink checking can be done with other tools). Link Analyzer is also faster, simpler and consequently less likely to bug out.

I also did not pay the full freight on SEO Elite. At the promotional price I paid, I feel I have received reasonable value. Look around for offers or PM me. At full price I would be less tolerant of some program instability and occasional sluggishness.

All of these SEO Tools are ridiculously overpriced (yes and even your excellent book Aaron which I bought when it was the price a book should be $40 and not wrapped up in a dozen affiliate programs). I'm convinced that Aaron would have done better to have stayed at $40 and thumbed his nose at the affiliate system. At $40, SEO Book would be the resource that no one could afford to be without, like Eric Meyer's CSS Pocket Reference. People would recommend SEO Book without an affiliate fee! Which is how SEO Book took off in the first place.

In fairness to Aaron, he is providing excellent free tools to his subscribers and free and regular updates to SEO Book so it's not a bad deal at $80 for the neophyte. But for an ebook with no delivery costs and no hard copy! There are other good introductions to search available for free (not least Brad Callen's own free courses above).

And Nick - no you're not a Google hater - but thank heavens not another Google bootlicker. The world has a surfeit of those already, no need for more. Perhaps a BS viper but definitely not a Google hater.

Thanks for Threadwatch and very happy to be a supporting member here too. Threadwatch is the best resource of all of the above.

And droll.

>But for an ebook with no

>But for an ebook with no delivery costs and no hard copy

I don't think you quite understand the value of intellectual property, it has no, nil, zero relation to "production costs".

If I were new(ish) to SEO,

If I were new(ish) to SEO, I'd be cool with paying Aaron $79 to spend a ton of his time to cull through the noise and deliver relevant, timely SEO learning material.

I don't think you quite

I don't think you quite understand the value of intellectual property, it has no, nil, zero relation to "production costs".

the *value* may not be related to production costs, but IMO the *price* is. for instance entire music albums purchased as digital downloads are generally much cheaper than CDs, not only because of reduced marginal costs but also because people are less likely to steal something they can just as easily get for free if the price is low. for instance adobe photoshop would be a lot less pirated if they didnt charge as much as they do.

Although i dont consider

Although i dont consider myself an seo, for some years i've been "doing" seo-like things - and i have to tell you, that $80 for that book, is about $200 less than what i would have paid for it in retrospect.

Seriously.

Volume or scarcity...

Nick, I don't doubt that properly applied the information in Aaron's book could be worth much more than $80. On the other hand, one can buy Napoleon Hill's Think and Grow Rich for $3.61. Men have built huge fortunes based on the knowledge that is in Napoleon Hill's book. I'm not sure that is the case with Aaron's book yet.

So clearly a valuable book costs much less expensive than its intrinsic worth under ideal circumstances.

My point is that if Aaron had stayed at $40 and avoided the affiliate psychology, his book would still have taken off and would have become even more of a classic as everyone entering or in search would just buy SEO Book as a matter of course. In the long run, the sales would be exponentially higher than at its current price point.

If Aaron's own mindset - as he expressed it when he began this Odyssey - is to help people, he would have been able to reach many more people at the lower price point as the information would be accessible to more people.

Aaron is taking the RIAA approach - try to stick the highest possible price on the goods that the market could potentially bear. In this way, he maximises his individual return on each sale. But on the other hand, he makes less sales.

I'm dead certain people would have publicised SEO Book vociferously without any affiliate scheme. I think many reputable people in search might even hesitate to give the same publicity to SEO Book because of the affiliate schemes. But they don't want to promote it at that price without the affiliate cut as otherwise that affiliate cut is probably going to go to somebody else. And why should I promote for free something that is in an affiliate MLM scheme.

Yes, I hold a very dim view of affiliate schemes and think the artificial price inflation that they bring along behind them is one of the banes of the modern web. The retailer's cut was always for providing sales and service. Which affiliates intrinsically don't do. You visit - you go to seller's website, affiliate takes up to 50%. Loser = buyer. Without affiliate scheme he would have found worthwhile resource on the web anyway and been able to buy said good for half the price.

As in the case of Aaron's book. I found and bought it before his own case of affialititis set in.

I told him at the time what I thought. I'd be curious to know his own latest thoughts on affiliate affairs. Judging from Aaron's post on his deal with Brad Callen above, he has some reservations now.

Blithely.

clarification - Nick

Nick, you boldly said that you would have been happy to have paid another $200 for Aaron's book.

Could you tell us all please, how much you did pay for it?

In cash.

Sorry to be so blunt, but...

I would like us to be speaking of money we have spent rather than other people's money we would spend.

I'm very amused by scoreboard's comment, "if I were newish to SEO". Again the conditional.

I did buy Aaron's book at $40. But I wouldn't buy it at $80.

It's neither a workbook nor a course - it's just a text.

So clearly a valuable book

So clearly a valuable book costs much less expensive than its intrinsic worth under ideal circumstances.

In any market there will be inefficiencies. Why intentionally undercut oneself because another work is not being fairly valued?

My point is that if Aaron had stayed at $40 and avoided the affiliate psychology, his book would still have taken off and would have become even more of a classic as everyone entering or in search would just buy SEO Book as a matter of course. In the long run, the sales would be exponentially higher than at its current price point.

Maybe that is true, but how does that explain other SEO products at higher price points outselling my stuff at least 10 to 1?

If Aaron's own mindset - as he expressed it when he began this Odyssey - is to help people, he would have been able to reach many more people at the lower price point as the information would be accessible to more people.

This in theory is true. But it is not how it works. Sales did not drop after the price increase.

Aaron is taking the RIAA approach - try to stick the highest possible price on the goods that the market could potentially bear.

That is totally inaccurate. Does the RIAA give away their product and time to hundreds of charities every year? And then donate a bunch of money too? That is just a garbage comparison.

You know what I do when people tell me they can't afford my ebook? I ask them what they can afford. If I think they are being sincere with their offer I tell them to donate that money to a charity I chose and then give them my ebook at no profit to me.

If I was trying to price out to the max the market could potentially bear the price point would be much closer to $300 and I would really push the value of some of the freebies that come with it. There would also be audio and video with it. Don't think some hardcore affiliate marketers haven't approached me on some joint venture deals like that...I have not done it because it is not who I am.

In this way, he maximises his individual return on each sale. But on the other hand, he makes less sales.

Believe me, I had the same philosophy as you, but I had a friend who was smarter than I am. He kept pounding it into my head that value is associated with price point and that some people were turned off by my price.

From everything I can tell he was right.

I'm dead certain people would have publicised SEO Book vociferously without any affiliate scheme.

You mean they would write threads like "Best $79 I ever spent ~ SEO Book" or Nick's review?

Sales are higher now than they were before the price increase, and that leaves me with a few extra thousand dollars a month to make a bunch of tools with.

I think many reputable people in search might even hesitate to give the same publicity to SEO Book because of the affiliate schemes.

I seriously doubt that. Even Danny Sullivan gave it a mention.

But they don't want to promote it at that price without the affiliate cut as otherwise that affiliate cut is probably going to go to somebody else.

A low percent of my sales are from affiliates. I did not want hype marketing. That is part of the reason my initial payout requires multiple sales and starts at only $25 a sale...to prevent the heavy huckster affiliate marketing.

When I was uber poor I pushed a bit of the affiliate stuff for others products, but don't need to rely on that anymore. Sometimes I still use affiliate links, but it is not often.

And why should I promote for free something that is in an affiliate MLM scheme.

I don't view that as accurate on any level really. I have 3 affiliates that have sold more than 5 ebooks.

Also note how slow I have been at doing things like charging recurring fees. Also note that there have been a total of 0 0 0 0 upsells in the updates. Nothing but free software and information.

As in the case of Aaron's book. I found and bought it before his own case of affialititis set in.

For having affiliatitis I sure am a crappy affiliate manager ;)

Myself

I would have bought it at £200 but not at £20. Perceived value. It is worth £400.

How much does it cost me to go visit a client and tell them three things that changes their business cost into a business asset that earns them a million pounds extra revenue? Price of a train ticket, taxi, lunch ... hmmm. They were charged a couple of grand (not in my pocket unfortunately) and earned, well actually way more than that million. Would have been foolish to charge the "cost of production" rather than the real value eh? Words cost nothing but change business (and lives).

Another example, I added one feature on a website that changed the ROI so the site way more than paid for itself. We charged by the hour and missed out big time.

I know I would advise Aaron to charge based on value rather than cost of production.

thanks for the info

Hello Aaron,

Thanks very much for sharing your experience.

Surprised by some of these results. But they are what they are. Matter for reflection.

Good on you that you continue to do the charity work. That was something which impressed me right from the beginning when I found your website.

Best, ronsard

privatisation of water

hey chris,

maybe you should get involved in the privatisation of water. it's a coming big business. the stuff revolutions are made of.

if you were charged what every item was worth to you (in its absence), you couldn't get through your day. air, water, food.

all of those things give the truly invaluable - life.

i'm amazed at people who think that their marketing expertise should give them a vested interest in all their clients businesses. one provides services. one provides it at certain rates.

but chris, if you can get people to give you an ongoing portion of their revenues on the basis of those services, good on you. quite close to the work of either a highwayman or the government to my mind...to each his own.

anyway to return to aaron (and brad) - 20000 copies at $40 is $80000. and a broad user base. 2000 copies at $80 is $16000. and a narrow user base.

more people helped as well. world a better place, etc.

apparently those are not the numbers - sales did not decline at the higher price point - although they may have taken off (reputation growing) like that at the lower price point.

realistically those of us want to reap the big rewards, we should be running our own web businesses and not working as just guns for hire. let alone dedicating ourselves to becoming affiliate greasers.

cheers, ronsard

ronsard, ronsard, ronsard

Way to miss the point..

>>i'm amazed at people who

>>i'm amazed at people who think that their marketing expertise should give them a vested interest in all their clients businesses. one provides services. one provides it at certain rates.

exactly the point Chris was making surely? And Aaron provides his service for $79.

Aaron

We can talk about affiliate STUFF in Vegas

Just my tuppence

From what I have heard around the community and my own experience, Aaron's book is priced on the cheap side. The price rise, when it happened was greeted the same sort of thoughts as one would have if they had a 30 day trial of a piece of shareware and then the price came in.

When Aaron's e-book first came out at the cheaper price point and people bought it, they gained because they were early adopters. That is not unusual in the technology industry. When I first spoke to Aaron about the price rise, I had thought that he had this amazing marketing plan to get in the early adopters and then increase the price. It just wasn't the case.

Aaron was almost dragged kicking and screaming (and he's no slim jim) to set a price point closer to the value of the contents and services (which includes fairly regular updates on the industry - free) by at least one person highly respected in the industry and I have never heard any other respected figures do anything but agree - this actual subject has been raised at a number of gatherings over the last year that I have attended and to a person, everyone thinks that Aaron's current price point is too low and I have heard people (respected people) telling Aaron to double the price because it's worth it - for no other reason.

I think it is worth mentioning the fact that a mainstream publisher is now wanting the publish the contents to allow themselves to make money, that is quite telling. Publishers know how much work goes into a book before they want to publish it. They saw the value in the contents and Aaron's hard work.

Now the real question. Is this a linkbait marketing campaign that Aaron is running :-)

what point did i miss chris...

your advice nets your client a million pounds. therefore implicitly you seem to imply that you ought to be getting a percentage of that but are reluctantly settling for couple of thousand.

but if your client didn't hire you - they would hire someone else. whose advice might net them 1,100,000 pounds (or 900,000)?

same deal with aaron's book. if someone in search needs information, he or she has choices. if that person doesn't buy aaron's book for $40 or $80 they can either read someone else's free course, read someone's website (including aaron's) or buy someone else's book.

my point is that at $40 everyone should own a copy just as a handy reference. at $80 - buy it if you need it.

for most of the people here, what's inside isn't exactly news.

on the other hand, in the underworld of search, aaron is one of the relatively few straight shooters (case in point, his post above). so an initiate could fall into far worse hands.

apart from aaron only other person i know of who can be counted on for sound advice would be jill whalen. frankly the rest of the pack are peddling snake oil in one form or another, with recommendations which sooner or later will bring grief on the recipient without regular and timely followup.

our clients aren't buying our services. they are getting plugged into their regular dose. and once they're hooked, their websites won't go far without us.

oh - oh. now i'm start to sound like that guy from ihelpme. time to put away the shiny white shield and go back to the depths to work.

Heck, I bought Aaron's book

Heck,

I bought Aaron's book at $80 and I already had an older review copy Aaron gave me for free. The price is worth it if you want to cut right to the chase of SEO. Not everybody is willing to crawl on bare knees through the broken glass of forums and frellin whiney mile-long Google Dance, Propaganda and Circle Jerk Threads™ at WmW for months looking for a clue, so $80 with updates looks good.

>>TW is Anti-Google

Frellin Google.

Income

Quote:
20000 copies at $40 is $80000. and a broad user base. 2000 copies at $80 is $16000. and a narrow user base.

Not exactly how the book business works. Let's say a publisher wants to publish your ebook. You have already put the major part of the work into it over say 1 year.

You sign with the publisher. Have a look at your contract because this is very important. As a first time author your share of that let's say $20 will start on a sliding scale of about 5-15% of the first 1,000 sales and then gradually increase by a few percentage points as the sales go up. A lot of the time they will give you the carrot of a higher percentage if you do another book.

Now you have to promote that book. That involves zipping around all these book stores, in Aaron's case where geeks are based in big enough numbers to attract a crowd to the bookstore. This flying let's say from the sticks of Virginia to San Francisco, the related hotel stays all comes out of that 5-15% royalties. So to fly to San Francisco and stay in the hotel for a night is roughly going to cost about say $1,000. That means just to break even, he has to sell say 180 books. It has also take about 3 days of his time where he is not making other money. The chances are at a signing like that he would maybe sell 180 books. His income would be zero. In fact it would have cost him 3 days loss of earnings to earn nothing.

It is not as simple as multiply price x copies.

In the case of Aaron's book - you must also realise that quite possibly, his book would be out of date between the writing and the publication. Would you buy a SEO book in 3 months time that didn't mention Jagger 1, 2 & 3?

there are a ton of uber honest sharing people in SEO

apart from aaron only other person i know of who can be counted on for sound advice would be jill whalen.

I don't know about that. A couple other people who wrote books offer great stuff (like Mike Grehan and Dan Thies). I regularly learn from reading here, and SEW forums. Some of the people out there (like Lots0, Littleman, NFFC, Greg Boser, Oilman, Baked Jake, Mikkel, DaveN, JasonD, etc) know way more than I.

--

Quote:
apart from aaron only other person i know of who can be counted on for sound advice would be jill whalen. frankly the rest of the pack are peddling snake oil in one form or another, with recommendations which sooner or later will bring grief on the recipient without regular and timely followup.

Aww...thanks for that!

For the record, I think Aaron should sell his book for whatever he can get for it. Why not? The issues others brought up were all valid points, i.e, perceived value, etc.

I have always found that every time I raise my prices on pretty much any product or service I sell more as well. Eventually, you do hit a price point that is too much, and you start to lose sales. As long as you pay attention and adjust accordingly it's all good.

publishing deal

If Aaron doesn't take the mainstream publishing deal from a prestigous house, he will be setting precedent. It will be one of the first instances where an independent creator (whether in publishing, music or film) chooses to turn down mainstream distribution and continue to distribute independently.

I've been waiting for this to start to happen. It will happen more and more often as people get turned onto keeping the proceeds for their own work. Via the internet, there is no reason not to self distribute music at very low cost.

Mainstream publishing/music in many ways isn't a lot better than the affiliate system. You give us your product and if you're lucky we'll give you something back at the end of the day. We'll make you famous. You'll make us rich. On the other hand, unlike affiliates, mainstream publishers took on some liability and editorial responsibility by publishing an author. The stamp of a press was worth something.

For eurotrash, the updates for hard copy could be provided online with an embedded number and pass with each volume. Moreover, most of Aaron's book would hold up pretty well for a year or so. It would be better if the technology were put in place for rolling editions (print on demand every few months, with the latest version).

Personally I think the idea of a mainstream SEO Book in hard copy is a great idea. I don't know about you lot, but I'm at my computer enough that I've pretty much had it with ebooks. I like to hold a volume in my hand which I can take somewhere else and read. To the cafe, to the bedroom, to the beach. Away from the computer.

Whatever you decide, Aaron, congratulations on the deal. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy or a more deserving author.

Book deals

The only time I recommend taking a book publishing deal is for reputation. It opens doors but its a poor way to make a living. They pay crap and you have to put the majority of the hard promotional graft in. I speak as someone who isn't JK Rowling of course ;O)

SEOBOOK $800

...and a damn good deal at that price.

How much money would you spend to learn the basics of a profession that can (and does) make you financially independent?
(financially independent = No boss... ever!)

Some folks pay tens of thousands of dollars to go to college (I know I did) where you never learn how to make money...

In case you can't tell - Yes, I think Aaron should raise his prices... a lot

hey lotso

Between SEO Book and a college education, I think I'd choose college.

Guys - i have a secret for you.

SEO is a growing business in volume, but the stupid prices won't last forever.

With any luck, some of the fatuous arrogance will go with them.

On the other hand, if Aaron chooses to stay in this business, he will last.

I have one name for you: Henry Ford.

Doubt it

Quote:
If Aaron doesn't take the mainstream publishing deal from a prestigous house, he will be setting precedent. It will be one of the first instances where an independent creator (whether in publishing, music or film) chooses to turn down mainstream distribution and continue to distribute independently.

As ChrisG said, you get paid pretty much nothing if you go with a publisher.

Why would anyone choose say 6% of a book that they will sell for maybe $19.99 at most, when you could sell it yourself with no printing costs, at $80 or $50 or $300, and get 100% of the profits?

Yes, perhaps for the prestige factor. But that's about it. You won't catch me writing a book for a publisher unless they would pay me a whole lot more than 6 or 7%.

..

With any luck, some of the fatuous arrogance will go with them.

Nope, wrong again. The "fatuous arrogance" is just part of who I am. ;-)

Oh, it's worth it.

Quote:
you must also realise that quite possibly, his book would be out of date between the writing and the publication

Isn't that part of his USP for selling it as an ebook anyways? I think it was a smart angle.

Quote:
How much money would you spend to learn the basics of a profession that can (and does) make you financially independent?

Exactly. The learning curve for SEO is massive. It would have taken me weeks to learn the information on my own, and took me three days to read the book.

In the extra time, I started making my company money. $80, Totally worth it. Opportunity cost if I hadn't read the book would have been over $500, maybe even $1000.

Brilliant - couldn't have said it better myself

The learning curve for SEO is massive....it took me three days to read the book.

Anything that the basis of which can be learned in three days from a book is not rocket science - nor is the barrier for entry very high. Good thing to have that college education after all.

The advertising agencies will be all over search next year. Whether search goes into the above-the-line or below-the-line department/agency will be the dispute du jour. And they will do a good job with it. There will be some nice jobs available for people with some experience.

The algorithms will continue to improve.

This mythology of the lone rider bringing Google to its knees is on its last legs.

And I can't say the notion leaves me particularly teary-eyed.

The right book deal could leave Aaron the highest paid and most coveted of the trainer-speakers for the corporate circuit as they move to bring search in house. Depends who the publisher is and depends on their marketing plan for the book.

Next year?

Leave the echo chamber. Ad agencies, well the good ones are already here and don't kid yourself SEM is considered above the line. Give it a few years for that one :O)

Can anyone explain to me why

Can anyone explain to me why we're giving aaron, a good friend of mine and tw a hard time in a thread about TW being called anti google?

Aaron the highest paid and

Aaron the highest paid and most coveted of the trainer-speakers for the corporate circuit

That might not be my deal though. I have done public speaking exactly once in the last decade (although it was recent and I think it went well).

I am going to a conference soon and then there might be a deal or two right around the corner, but I am not certain I would aim to be or want to be a big corporate circuit person.

Anything that the basis of which can be learned in three days from a book is not rocket science - nor is the barrier for entry very high.

But it is not just mathematics and learning. It is also about building social relationships. That takes time to develop those, and it takes time for the algorithms to trust their existance.

Good thing to have that college education after all.

I never had one.

My roommate just quit school... to work on the web.

>Can anyone explain to me

>Can anyone explain to me why we're giving aaron, a good friend of mine and tw a hard time in a thread about TW being called anti google?

Yes.

Commuinity at its best. Ronsard has his/her head stuck up his/her arse and everybody is rallying round to try and help him/her remove it.

That's pretty much the

That's pretty much the conclusion i was coming too.

I think we can end this one now, thanks everyone.

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