Rumor: Bigmouthmedia Hand Removed from Google
JamesLittle recently notified TW that Bigmouthmedia has been removed from Google.
It appears as though Bigmouthmedia, arguably the most well known SEO agency in the UK, has been banned from Google. They have no PageRank, and their site can't be found in Google anymore, even when you search for their brand name!
Anyone know what happened to the boys at Bigmouthmedia? Hand removal? Just a glitch?
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perhaps this...?
Well, they're still in Google's cache.
And Google's text cache reveals a possible hint if they are indeed penalized.
They have a huge amount of content stuffed into a little tiny frame on the bottom left corner of their home page. Doesn't really seem like it's meant for their users, but who's to say...
BTW, I love that TW outs stuff now. It makes me laugh.
“exclusive”
Apparently this site: http://www.directtraffic.org/PageRank_Review.htm will be publishing a BMM statement, all will be revealed…?
”bigmouthmedia has asked Direct Traffic to publish a statement on their behalf, they have assured us that we will be the first ones to have this statement.”
” More “exclusive” news from BMM coming soon”
There is also an open forum launched on the BMM issue – Brave…
http://www.directtraffic.org/forum_category_bigmouthmedia.aspx
I don't really consider it
I don't really consider it outing AFTER a site has already been whacked, IMHO.
Cloaking
That'll do it every time!
True, after they've been whacked it's public humiliation, not outing ;)
that is going to hurt!
that is going to hurt!
Google could not cripple BMW but they can certainly destroy BigMouth Media today.
Unless they hire a gun PR agency and some poor 17 year old employees becomes their scapegoat I don't see these guys keeping all their clients or employees.
Ahh..
I must remember to login when submiting stories, although the original source was Nathan from UK-Netmarketing chinwag list and Aaron edited my post ;)
They state(d) on their page that they get:
search engine optimisation:
Yahoo.com, position 10
However they don't seem to be in the first 10 pages, let alone one of the first 10 Serps - does that suggest that google are not the only ones to take action or they just aren't as good as they used to be on there? (Search for BigMouth Media and they are possition 5 on yahoo, so they are certainly still on there).
Hi James
Hi James
my bad... I get it as an email if you suggest a story. if you login and submit then it is a submission.
I did not put your name on it off the go because I did not want to without your permission (thought there may have been a reason it was submitted as an email instead of a post).
I also emailed you back and and asked you if you wanted your name on it, etc...but am unsure if you replied to that email yet.
I added your name to the post above.
Onward and upward...let me stuff a bit more content in here
seo
search engine optimization
roi focused search marketing
search engine placement
is there some sort of program I could use to do this?
more info...
information is still coming in from various sources:
LOL
That's one way to get around dropping sales... fire your staff and keep one or two who are busy keeping exisiting clients happy and in the fold.
IncrediWrong Again..
Sorry Bill they're not cloaking. It looks like a cloak but.. Turn off the styles in you browser. Now go and view the text cache vs the cache with styles turned off. They're exactly the same site minus the images (strip=1 takes the images off).
Now view their site with the css off and the normal cache with the css off. They're the same.
They did stuff a ton of content into a scroll enabled div using css. But I can't say for sure thats what did them in since in IE it looks like a perfectly legit text scrolling application.
Maybe Matt Cutts will explain that one as well as SEO inc or SEO guy... Who knows but as per the cloaking.. nope try again.
As per myself:
All that text that is in the div that's scrollable (FF) or has the neat looking fade-in fade-out (IE) doesn't look bad if you see it working in the site as an application.
The only gray area is right below it in the code. There are a series of "dropdown" css classes that are set to visibility:hidden
They look like they are suppost to be triggered by a mouse over in the main nav which sets the class to visible. Still legit if viewing as a user (if they worked lol) but looks real ify in the code since no drop downs occur, the vis is set to hidden and it looks like you're stuffing bottom content.
My advice - Kill the dropdown css and go make a javascript dropdown in Macromedia Fireworks (Code generates the same hidden/visible css but it all in javascript so the engines can't penalize ya) and put in for a reinclussion. If they tripped a hidden content filter explain the java was suppost to change the css class to visible on a mouse over in the nav.
Basically sum it up like this. If Jill (highrankings.com) made her dropdowns hard coded divs at the bottom of her site with css set to be hidden on page load and were able to be triggered to visible or hide, she'd be a strong canidate to be hand removed from the SERPS too...
Ok so we can stop throwing them under the bus. They've learned their css lesson the hard way, move on...
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Why bring me into it? Wouldn't it affect anyone who did this?
It sure would, and you are
It sure would, and you are right It would affect anyone that put it hard code. In theory. I think if you have a big name it helps for a more line by line review from SE and SEO.
Now I know not to waist my time on a hard code drop down navigation I've been working on and off again for a few years. In the back of my mind I was thinking ,"is their a risk to this"? "would I implement this on a client site and be able to sleep at night"? I got my answer :)
I don't think it may have
I don't think it may have been meant as a personal thing there Jill... just thinking he was trying to say that a few coding differences are the differences between one site and the next.
SEOMike
Don't get me angry... lol
I know all about CSS and that wasn't what I missed the first time I looked at as I noticed most of the similarities, but there looked like a big chunk of cached text that seemed missing in the site but I finally located it. Turns out it was a browser glitch that led me to that conclusion.
Some days ya just can't win for losing.
I'm not convinced at all
Sure it's real convenient to look at current source and pick out something that *might* have been *iffy* and blame it, but to commit as you do seomike? Nah.
There's plenty of CSS on the web using onmouseover hide/unhide for legitimate content (especially nav) and I don't buy that it got this not-very-spammy site dropped. Sure I might be wrong on that, but if I am then this whole abide-by-restrictive-TOS-or-get-dropped thing is far too unstable to support itself for very long. I doubt that more than I doubt the CSS dropdowns got them dropped.
One other consideration is that in the SEO serps, even a tiny little iffy thing can get you dropped. I might believe that, except that if it were true the resulting choas in the SEO field would be worse for the big SE's than the status quo. They are doing well right now reigning in the eggregious offenders and b*tchslapping the clients, while avoiding having to actually define "acceptable" optimization.
My money is on business matters, such as clients ratting out the SEO firm, other activities (links, sales, promoting same), or technical issues off-page.
hidden txt - that can't be serious
... although Matt Cutts also says something like that, I find it hard to believe that hidden text should be taken seriously at all, much less penalized.
Well, perhaps they do so, but I just don't think it's a reasonable thing to do. In these "web 2.0" times with dynamic pages and all, you can surely provide a lot of good user value by hiding parts of pages for those visitors that don't do something actively to view those parts of the page. (example)
IOW, if Google really looks after hidden text, now would be a good time to stop doing that. Or, alternatively start ignoring it in stead of penalizing it. After all, if it's hidden, ignoring it seems pretty appropriate. However, the example above is a pretty useful page, it's just not everything that's visible at the same time, so ignoring the hidden parts would also mean ignoring useful and relevant content.
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[this part removed - be faster next time - graywolf got some of it]
*cough* radar *cough*
- Oh, and I agree with John Andrews on "other factors"
Matt's Links
Btw. can you guys guess how many backlinks said firm has (...) from comments on Matt Cutts' blog?
Matt's comment links are all with link condom's, gotta love yahoo for ignoring that though.
Maybe it had something to do
Maybe it had something to do with the 30,000+ pages they used to keep alive at search.bigmouthmedia.com. They had abit of a clean up and removed that now, they used to buy alot of links as well, but who knows :)
Duplicate content??
http://www.bigmouthmedia.com/live/articles/bigmouthmedia_goes_dutch_with_visitscotland.asp
http://www.bigmouthmedia.com/live/articles/visitscotland_goes_dutch_with_bigmouthmedia.asp
Haven't looked through all the SEO related articles they have on their site, but spotted this when I first heard the rumour Monday morning.
It's never going to help your rankings with duplicate content such as on the pages above
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But that's not gonna hurt them and certainly not get them banned either.
but...
..this is just one example that was visible from the home page. They have hundreds, if not thousands of news articles/press releases throughout their site, and if they have done the same to these other articles then it wouldn't suprise me if this was part of the reason they were banned.
You can't have two copies of the same article on your site with varying titles, especially when you're an SEO company.
It may be the case that this was just an honest mistake and is the only occurence of duplicate content.
I'm not saying this was the reason they were banned, but just that they should be much more careful. From Google's webmaster guildines:
Don't create multiple pages, subdomains, or domains with substantially duplicate content.
From my understanding it was because of this revolving text in the bottom left-hand corner of the homepage that they have been banned. Here's what the page looks like to a search engine. Notice the revolving text that makes up a third of the page's content!
Much ado about nothing?
I just happened to be looking at the SERP for the phrase search engine marketing (at Google) and BMM is on page 2. So apparently they're not banned, or they never were banned, or they're back?
Yes, it is back
bigmouthmedia.com is back in Google
That query yesterday did not show them on Google's index.
Note the cache
Now shows the page like the user sees it.
Shock.
I'm sure SEOMike will tell me I'm IncrediWrong again.
Not.
Doesn't look the same to me.
Doesn't look the same to me. The copy in the text cache has links, and what you see now on the site itself is that text, no longer in a little framed window, but showing up a bit at a time. But it doesn't appear to have the links like it does in the text cache.
Perhaps they were never banned at all and it was just a glitch? I find it hard to believe they would have been banned and reinstated that quickly.
If there was nothing wrong
If there was nothing wrong with the site in the first place then they would not of changed it, would they ?
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Mick if you're talking to me, I sure didn't say there was never anything wrong with the site, I just said: "Perhaps they were never banned at all."
Personally, I've seen a lot more blatant spam be allowed to remain in Google. From what I saw on this BMM site, the text was all visible, just not all that noticeable. There might have been other stuff they cleaned up. I didn't personally look very long or carefully at what they were doing.
There were some Fortune 500 sites outed a few months ago using actual real hidden text that are still using it, and not banned even though Google/Cutts knew about them.
Which is why I was surprised if this case was an actual Google penalization. Has Matt C. made a statement on this one? If this was a banning, it is kind of funny as to which sites they penalize and which they ignore. So far, it seems like if you're not in the US you better watch out!
Nah I was not aiming at you
Nah I was not aiming at you in particular Jill it was just an open comment :)
I does seem strange though that a site is removed or looking like it has been removed only to reappear 48 hours later when google say they don't do "hand jobs" , the only other time I can recall of a site being removed for 48 hours was the toxiclemon saga of Christmas 2003, I dare say there have been others removed but have not made it through on the gossip grapevine
I wonder if a one man band (or woman) working from his/her bedroom doing the same sort of search engine spamming would get the same treatment as a large company has with these latest removals and re inclusions with BMW and bigmouthmedia, hmmm something tells me this would not be the case, corporate branded yeah, little johnny from his bedroom, nah I doubt it
I have seen other well known
I have seen other well known SEO sites get hammered for content stuff like that and then change it and be back where they were in well under a week.
Seems like Google is trying to blur the line on many things though, doesn't it?
It appears....
...that the old scrolling text they had in the bottom left-hand carner has now been replaced by a Flash app.
It will now not be indexable by search engines and will not count towards their rankings.
Google is still indexing the old cache and so rankings haven't been affected just yet, but I reckon that once it starts picking up the Flash app instead of the scrolling text, they'll lose one or two places for SEO related terms.
I'm slightly disappointed in Google for re-including them so quickly to be honest. Like with BMW they have fixed the issues with their site, but I feel there should be an absolute minimum re-inclusion time of a week for cases like these.
More bad news for BMM and their clients
edit: removed names of sites.
BigMouthMedia have refuted
BigMouthMedia have refuted the story (in an email to a UKNM member)
Fair enough, but then TW regular Jason Duke points the finger to Alitalia, a BMM client. If you turn off the CSS you can see what he means.
Seems this hasn't quite gone away...
I don't think we want to
I don't think we want to point at too many more client sites...I dont think it is necissary.
Bigmouthmedia.com
Back in the listings and doing particularly well for the UK spelling of Search Engine Optimisation, however they're way down the listings for the US spelling.
Back in the listings and
Well all those links for one day of exclusion, almost worth it I'd say. Maybe we have a new form of linkbait?
As a client of BMM I'd be impressed they had recovered so quickly. Beats the hell out of being with some small time SEO who gets you banned for a 3 months and can't do anything about it ;)
Kino mentioned me and my
Kino mentioned me and my comments to the (excellent) UKNM email list where this story broke. I purposely hadn't commented here or any other forums on this issue but that is about to change :)
My response to the UKNM list was due to a statement by the Sales Director at BBM and is copy and pasted below. My public response to the list follows.
Scott, BBM's Sales Director said in am email to Keiron, the head of Online Operations at Game.net
Keiron posted the above to the UKNM list and my response was.
I have heard rumours that in fact matters go a LOT deeper than this, but more may well be revealed in time. For me BMM are nothing but a quacking spamming duck and for that I respect them immensely.
Unfortunately for them they got caught quacking too loudly!
huh?
Huh? That doesn't make any sense. They ARE back in the rankings, and the content that was previously in that little frame thingee, DOES show in the cache. So it is counting towards their rankings.
They're ranked for what is seen in the cache like any other site, unless somehow Google has something else to rank them on.
All signs point to a Google glitch if you ask me. Which is why forums outing this kind of stuff really sucks. What if it was YOUR site that got glitched?
(I'm in no way sticking up for this company or not sticking up for them. I don't know them and have barely heard of them. I don't know if they use spam tactics or not. I'm simply going by the facts as presented here and elsewhere. They were missing, and they're back, and it was all very quick. Just like what happens in a glitch. Could and does happen to many sites all the time.)
To me the only thing to learn from all this is to be careful when sending out a lynch mob.
I'm simply going by the
err.. that'd be alleged facts, eh Jill ? :-)
Kidding aside, outing is such an interesting activity. This BadMouthMedia case is just an example. You out them, they get publicity and links and traffic. Maybe they get banned, but maybe for just a few days. Because you are in fact outing public relations and marketing experts, you are also providing ample opportunity for spin (in front of all those new eyeballs that had never heard of them before). So we get to see how well they spin (a metric of creativity and industry expertise, imho. It seems BadMouthMedia has done pretty well so far). In the best cases of outing, we then get to watch as the spin flips the coin of accountability back to the outers and detractors... can they spin it back their way? Or do they react like juveniles, and miss the new reverse publicity opportunity for PR and name recognition and backlinks? Really.. a backlink to a forum post is not equivalent to a backlink to a marketing firm's corporate website, is it?
And then there's the collateral damage... also interesting to analyse. Who chimes in? How? All those new eyeballs... and the ThreadJacking™...my oh my that's fun, too. Who starts getting top ranks for search referrals on the popular queries? And posts about it (lol)? And then the blogging...
SEO blog post about "Any publicity is good publicity.." appearing in 5...4....3...2....
Good point, John! Can we
Good point, John!
Can we start a thread at how Big Daddy ate my site for breakfast and lowered it down a few ranks? (That's what I get for spamming! Or did I?) Maybe even the WallStreet Journal will take an interest! Better yet, hang on, and I'll post an anonymous tip here about it...
Google Shuffle?
I'm not sure that I've ever seen a site completely fall out of the SERPs as part of a glitch, but I do agree that all the links are good for Bigmouthmedia's own SERPs now that they have been reincluded.
I question that they have 'partners at Google' and I was put out a bit that they suggested that they had not changed their site (when Google cache still shows the old site) but am willing to accept that a lot of clients will be fooled by their marketing department.
What I think is the real worry for them is the exposure which Tesco, Sainsbury and, in particular, Alitalia are getting for their CSS hidden text and links.
If their clients are CSS spamming then how long will it be before they start getting banned themselves?
banned?
>>>If their clients are CSS spamming then how long will it be before they start getting banned themselves?
You know, I don't know. But it makes me really wonder. I spend so much time reading about bleeding edge techniques - then every once in a while it becomes clear that old school basic techniques still get around the algo. Makes me want to re-evaluate and think about putting up some pos site full of keyword stuffing, hidden text and iframes and see how long I make money and before I get a hand ban.
Just like link networks. Horrible ugly things ;) that apparently the SE's have detected and don't work anymore. Except I think they DO still work magnificently as long as you don't get reported and someone at Google hand reviews you. Advanced network detection? Maybe. Maybe not. Not sure that makes much sense to implement if you can still rank with offpage and hidden text using CSS.
I'm not sure that I've ever
I have. And it was a highly advertised, well branded, old and legitimate PageRank 7 site.
It was NOT a glitch that led
It was NOT a glitch that led to no visibility in the SERPs
I have
I've seen it back during the Google dances of yore. My own site would often go missing for hours and then be back. Pretty scary stuff, but it never amounted to anything.
This Big Daddy update seems very similar to those types of updates where the rankings change from minute to minute.
I still say it was a glitch due to the major database restructuring G is doing right now.
or maybe...
It is easy for all of us to speculate one way or the other, but if Big Mouth Media thinks it was a glitch the proof will be in the pudding.
If the page reverts back to the version that was live when the "glitch" occured we will know that BMM is offering more than talk and that they are willing to have their site and code match their words.
The SEO Witch Hunts
Okay this is really getting out of control... I am getting 10 emails a day about new posts to this thread.... and double that from SEW forums... can we put a fork in this one?
I have looked at this in general and used a phrase from shor at SEW forums Google Catch and Release Program to look at what has happened over this and a couple of related topics recently.
fork off ;)
I think there's a way to turn off the email notifications here, AW. :)
Alitalia Casestudy
@JASON D
On http://www.bigmouthmedia.com/live/articles/alitalia-case-study.asp you can find the following text:
"Due to strategic reasons, Alitalia are no longer a current bigmouthmedia client from early 2005 onwards.
This information is for demonstration purposes only, and does not reflect the current SEO status of the Alitalia site."