Illegal NSA Spying Program to End

47 comments

Federal judge orders halt to NSA spy program

The warrantless Internet and telephone surveillance program authorized by the Bush administration violates the U.S. Constitution and must cease immediately, a federal judge ruled Thursday.

Comments

I'm so proud

Jihadists in America 1
Americans 0

FINALLY

I was sick of it... warrentless meaning the NSA had free reign to listen to anyones hot calls with his girlfriend for fun.

It was a violation of epic proportions.

We were founded on the principle that you are innocent until proven guilty.. not guilty until proven innocent...

When my smoking remains are

When my smoking remains are laying in a pile of pulverized concrete and burning jet fuel, I'll be sure to remember that.

Did the judge

make up his mind on this before or after the NSA helped flesh out the recent plan to blow up airplanes over US cities?

911

Oh come on Kirby, we already know that incidents such as 9/11 were arranged and carried out by the U.S government and the recents scares at UK airports were fictional just like the ricin factory and nearly every other terrorist story to hit the UK media(majority proven to be false!).

remember

Don't trust everything you think.

She

was appointed by Jimmy Carter

Appeal Pending...

Nothing has stopped!

The Whitehouse immediately compelled another court to issue a stay on the judgement and have appealed to the supreme court, which will take months for the case to be heard. If the supreme court rejects (common) or agrees, then it's permanent.

Why the NSA needs to stop this

I don't know how else to phrase it, I figured Benjamin Franklin was slightly more eloquent than myself.

Quote:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

Regardless, the illegal wiretaps continue (as hopeseekr) has pointed out.

When my smoking remains are

When my smoking remains are laying in a pile of pulverized concrete and burning jet fuel, I'll be sure to remember that.

Well, if we didn't accidentally blow up commercial airlines from other countries maybe people wouldn't want to do the same shit back to us.

We started the blow airplanes up shit. Of course, when we do it, it is an accident - and not our fault. We never claimed fault, and even gave the people who shot down an airline with 66 children an award!!! When others do something similar then it is terrorism which requires us to strip rights from our citizens.

Give an inch and the assholes in the US government will try to take 3 miles. While still doing nothing to ever address the core problem. They just keep on attacking symptoms such that scumbag defense corporations and shareholders can keep bilking opportunity and freedoms from the average citizen.

We reap what we sow. Those dumb enough to not see through it can not be helped.

We started the blow

We started the blow airplanes up shit. Of course, when we do it, it is an accident - and not our fault. We never claimed fault, and even gave the people who shot down an airline with 66 children an award!!!

That's the most ignorant fucking comment. What is it with you pussy ass liberals? You want to blame America for everything that is bad in the world. You twist and turn things so that it appears that we reward evil actions.

By the way, the radical muslims were blowing shit up way before YOUR example of "American Terrorism". Of course, you'd find some reason to blame the US for those too.

You're as passive as a baby seal, waiting to be clubed in the head. You don't get the fact that it's THOSE assholes that when given an inch, they'll take 3 miles. Unless you are a muslim (and you have to be the right kind of muslim according to them), then you are an infidel and your on their list.

According to your logic

We started the blow airplanes up shit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/1/newsid_2493000/2493469.stm

So according to your logic, we would have been fully justified by sending civilian aircraft into the Kremlin as retaliation for this?

and, along those same lines,

and, along those same lines, let us not forget operation ajax.

what goes around comes around, karma, etc.

whether or not NSA wiretapping ends, though, the people of the US, as well as the people of most countries, still have a long ways to go in terms of securing freedom from their government.

Seobook

Quote:
Give an inch and the assholes in the US government will try to take 3 miles.

I really want to make a wisecrack about the gov't being elected by the people, but we know where that leads :).

Wow, spammers polarized!

I think it is fare to say that there is plenty of evil done to America by others. Yet, I am much more comfortable with the foe on the outside than an internal enemy with unchecked power.

If America could fight the Nazis without suspending human right why are the Jihadist so much more dangerous?

I do not subscribe to the reap and sew argument, but blind faith in the Executive branch to fight the Islamist bogyman is foolish -- look where it has got us in the last 5 years. Could it have been more mismanaged? Morality in these situations is really bullshit, its about cause and effect.

Ask yourself this... Are we living is special times where it is okay to suspend rights which generations have thought sacred? You may answer 'yes'. Okay, so tell me when this 'war on terror' will be over? Yeah, that's right, it will still be going in one form or another in 2050. What do you think is more of a danger in the next 40 years, terrorist destroying America, or us slipping so far out of democracy that our government makes the Vladimir Putin's administration look tame?

Think about what's happening:
surveillance cameras everywhere
national IDs (coming soon)
RFIDs soon to be common place
detention without representation or due process
electronic surveillance without warrants
eminent domain corruption

We are a lot more likely to destroy ourselves then falling prey to a splinter group of radicals.

I'm Southern Republican

To be clear:
I'm from an area that is the poster child for the far right.
I'm a guns and guts kinda guy.
I think the Democrats are generally pussies who push welfare to buy votes from the poor.

BUT I stand with Littleman on this.

We shouldn't be doing things

We shouldn't be doing things that are illegal. If it's illegal, then we should either stop or vote to change the law. Do one or the other. What could be more simple?

Hawaii: There are 70,000

Hawaii: There are 70,000 pages in the US law code and millions of words in the IRS code. Do you know them all?

Oh, and it doesnt stop there. With the recent treaty many countries just signed (including the US), you now have to coply with all the laws in every country of the world your website is served to or the other country can go after you using the US FBI.

but hey, as long as you are not breaking any laws, who cares about liberty? privacy and freedom are things only criminals care about. right?

Among those 70,000 pages ...

Among those 70,000 pages of legalese is at least one law which *you* have or will violate. This violation can be dug up by a team of lawyers working for a bureaucrat with an unlimited budget funded from your taxes at a time that is most inconvenient for *you*. Just because you pissed him off.

The reason the tax code is so large is that bureaucrats hate to lose. If they do, they just start agitating for a new paragraph to be added.

It has been said that there is no *one* person who completely understands the tax code. And that includes the bureaucrats.

wow...

That was 1983 and that event prompted my first ever political cartoon. Geesh, has it been that long?

If there was ever a need for a link drop to a political discussion forum, there is one here. Somebody drop a link and move along?

By the way, the radical

By the way, the radical muslims were blowing shit up way before YOUR example of "American Terrorism".

this may be true in regards to iran flight 655 that aaron referred to, although i dont think it's true if you consider operation ajax. there is a very clear line between that, the iranian revolution in '79, the ensuing hostage crisis and takeover of the US embassy in iran, and radical fundamentalist islamism in general.

every action creates an equal and opposing reaction. be it taking away your own people's liberty via NSA wiretapping or taking away other people's liberty by overthrowing democratically elected governments, where you leave a desire for vengeance, you leave inspiration for a vendetta.

>>If America could fight the

>>If America could fight the Nazis

Nazis and the USSR during the Cold War. Littleman is right, Hitler, Stalin, Mao and the boys were far greater threats than bin Laden, and in fact they could teach bin Laden a few things about being evil; yet we didn't give away our rights and liberties to fight them and we should not do it now.

Once you give up a liberty you will not get it back.

We're fightings against the

We're fightings against the world shittiest neighbors when you get right down to it. These Jihadist fundementalist can't get along with Christians, Buddhists, Hindus and other Muslim sects.

They're the biggest bunch of shovanistic pigs and human rights violators on the planet and you think that those at the forefront would be the civil libertarians and the human rights activists. Execpt you all are the first ones that stick up for them, bail them out of jail and set up lawyer camps out side gitmo. You give them hope when it's the sense of hopelessness that causes the prisoners to start talking.

The NSA was monitoring calls to foreign nationals even if you were an American citizen on the call. Once someone picks up on the other line that is NOT a US citizen, that call falls under the jurisdiction of foreign intellegence gathering and does not need a warrant to be listened in on. Like it or not being a terrorist in America has become a lot harder and thanks to the ACLU and other stupid Americans a hell of a lot easier...

Absolutley wrong

Once someone picks up on the other line that is NOT a US citizen, that call falls under the jurisdiction of foreign intellegence gathering and does not need a warrant to be listened in on.

Back when the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act went into effect in 1978, I was running a manual Morse intercept mission against the army of a, well, let's say, friendly country. The FISA, the same law still in effect today, forbade the intercept of communications by or about a U.S. citizen by the government without a court order.

Some of the members of the "friendly" army we were intercepting were known to be involved in illicit drug operations. They occasionally talked about current plans in en clair manual Morse transmissions. If they happened to mention an operatives name, and if we were not able to specifically determine that the person was not a U.S. citizen, which was almost impossible to do based on name alone, all related intercepts and intelligence had to be destroyed.

The FISA has not changed, no law has yet been passed to amend it. As long as a U.S. citizen is involved in a communication it is illegal for the U.S. government to intercept it without a court order.

Game on seomike! :) The

Game on seomike! :)

The naive pacifists who threaten to take over our government in the next election will make us wish we had the current president back in office.

Er... Brad, the last time I checked it is a battle between two different cultures, one that loves to kill and one the enjoys life, what does Bin Laden have to do with it now? Grow up!

Not quite..

Quote:
We reap what we sew.

No baby. We reap what we SOW.

'Reap' means 'to harvest'
'Sow' means 'to plant'.
'Sew' means 'to stitch'

So, we reap (harvest) what we sow (plant).

.

We rip what we sew.

shovanistic pigs

what do you shove into those pigs?

chauvinistic is the word you were looking for.

american conservatives

try this:

1. add up all the american conservatives *and* the people of the world at large who agree with them.

2. add up all the american liberals *and* the people of the world at large who agree with them.

look at the difference.

read closer

I don't think there is a pacifists in this thread.

Its so much easier to reduce people who disagree with you into an archetype like a 'pussy liberal'. I am not a pacifist at all. There is so much this administration has done wrong besides the civil liberty issues, and they have already proven themselves untrustworthy. Here is a stretch for you, Bush is responsible for the mess in Lebanon. Just ask me to back that up...

Uggggh...

This has nothing to do with Republicans vs Democrats, Patriots vs Terrorists, etc. It's a simple constitutional violation. Our government was built with a checks and balances in place. The judicial branch is the check and balance on the executive branch and their decisions.

Currently, these is no check and balance on the NSA spying. It is no different than telling a police force that they don't need warrants to search houses. Over time, it will be abused.

The solution should be creating a system with the FISA courts that would allow for terrorist surveillance with having a check and balance in place. There is no reason that a branch of our government should have ultimate, unchecked powers.

No wonder everyone hates

No wonder everyone hates America. Look at this thread.

You proud to be American? What's to be proud of? What a bunch of bigots. Seomike, I'd like to puke on your head.

>> SlyOldDog

What a douche bag.

What you are puking on is

What you are puking on is the graves of all those who died to ensure your safety in WW1-3, it has nothing to do with political party, it is necessary, logical and yes brutal business.

What I am puking on is the

What I am puking on is the ignorance and idiocy of the brainwashed.

To me it is all just cause and effect related issues. People die every day. We only hear about some of it. Sometimes it makes sense to escalate issues, and sometimes it does not. The thing is, that with the current group of radical extremists (in the US government) you can just about guarantee that when in doubt we will chose to escalate before considering other options (or even thinking of the potential outcome of our actions).

Afganhistan is on the verge of being in a state of civil war. So is Iraq. So far that makes the current administration 0 for 2. And, of course, the irony of it all is the lack of stability and economic insecurity in those regions is what makes it easy for warloard criminals to rise to power, create a cause to fight, and exploit those areas for self gain.

I am not a historian or political scientist on any level, but this stuff is just black and white obvious.

There is nothing more patriotic than questioning authority and trying to make your country better by stating your opinins and trying to change things you disagree with. Those who think otherwise are brainwashed and let others do their thinking for them.

The thing that many people fail to realize, is that I learned the hard way. Unlike most of the people who would label me a pussy liberal, I did more than 1 tour of duty in the military (even though I completely hated it and that lifestyle made me suicidally depressed).

When September 11th happened two of my bosses were away and (despite being probably the youngest guy in my division) I was the one in charge of running my division and getting the reactor ready to go underway to fight some unknown enemy...doing things like pushing my captain and a four star admiral out of the way to get the procedure done in about 1/3 the time it normally takes and 1/8th the time the procedure is supposed to take.

I felt suicidally depressed after...

  • a couple years of limited sunlight (frequently having literally no sun for months at a time)
  • limited exercise (sometimes they banned it because they did not want us to use too much oxygen). my job was to sit and mind the panel. most of my underway work day consisted of sitting in my chair and watching the panel. literally not doing a single action on the entire watch.
  • having low oxygen levels (like 1/3 less than normal!)
  • they manipulated oxygen levels to drug military members (keeping it way low most of the time, and cranking it up just before it was time to clean the boat)
  • limited sense of purpose
  • limited life stability (going underway about half the year and still working about 80 hours a week while in port)
  • irregular days (while underway you are on 18 hour days) if there is training or drills prior to an inspection it is not uncommon to be up many days in a row
  • limited social stability
  • being put on extra study hours during training because their computer did not count many of the points I already had (and they refused to fix this error because I was not behind enough for them to fix the error. they only fixed it after I stopped doing any work at all to fall further behind to force them to fix the error.)
  • generally being treated like a piece of shit
  • having them fuck up scoring my rating exams for well over a year (and not caring about making my pay about 40% less than it should have been)
  • having them tow my car off into the ghetto and have it broke into and all my shit stolen (at my expense)
  • being laughed at when I asked for my car. being told it was going to cost me a bunch of money to get by the people who towed it off base for parking illegally (though where I parked was legal the day I left and there was still a car parked in the same spot the day I returned)
  • imagine the feeling of returning from a deployment which made you think about ways to commit suicide daily...only to come back to realize that on that deployment that the military cost you more than they paid you for wasting a few months of your life
  • having them not compensate me for flooding my barracks room and destroying a bunch of my stuff
  • having them offload my uniforms and clothing with some other group and be forced to spend over a month's pay to replace it (and I sure enjoyed paying interest on the debt I accrued due to rebuying clothing)
  • being forced to do complex procedures I did not know how to do (and knowing I would receive punitive actions if I messed up)
  • seeing hypocrisy beyond belief (ie: seeing some people going to captains mast for doctoring logs that they could not have possibly got done because they were doing drills...only to later see the officers doctor their logs as a command approved and directed action item)
  • being told that we were probably going to die on my first deployment because something was fucked up (although someone was fucking with me I didn't know better and there was something seriously fucked up with the engine room that prevented the shaft from spinning ... and if the shaft stops spinning the boat sinks). You wouldn't realize just how profound of an effect this would have on you until you were in an engine room with people running around like chickens with their heads cut off and seeing their sense of urgency.
  • having them start up the engine room during non war times with large steam leaks (illegal) that were so bad that we had to redirect ventilation at it to condense the steam and set up pumps to collect the condensing steam (if those steam leaks would have got much worse 1/3 of the crew would have died in a matter of seconds).
  • having them routinely set up paint crews to paint the engine room while underway prior to inspections (illegal)
  • having them destroy some of my work records prior to processing me out of the military (illegal)

The above is just a small portion of everyday life examples of what it means to be in the military on a submarine. It does not include other social issues such as deaths in the family, family members being wrongfully jailed, family members getting bad diseases, etc.

And worse yet, I told doctors and my chain of command that I could not handle my job any longer and that I wanted to die (at least a half dozen times). At my formal career review board I told them that I would rather sell my body fluids for a living than stay in their system (and that was relatively tame compared to some of the other things I said or did). They ignored me until one night I took a bunch of drugs and told others what I did. Then they went from ignoring me to trying to destroy me. But they only made me stronger, so I got the last laugh on that one.

Others were less fortunate than I. One friend who went to school with me killed himself when he got to his boat. Suicide is one of the leading cause of death in the military. One guy on the boat got his foot crushed because another person was playing with the hydraulic lifts near his rack. Another one of my friends got put in a psych ward for a long time. I could go more in depth on this front, but lets just say that I should have died, and am still unsure why and how I am still alive and how I have been so lucky on the web so quickly after getting out of the military...especially because the whole wanting to die stuff did not go away the first day after I got out of the military...it took time to start feeling better, and it still has left a few mental scars that may never heal.

Note that above was only a small sample of items and that many of them were blatantly illegal (while others were immoral and/or inhumane). If we allow authority to ignore laws or make laws on the fly that creates a society that will pattern their lawless and inhumane action after the central government.

And then you got the shameful politicians cutting veteran benefits. People disabled (physically and/or mentally) and pulled out of society no longer able to function or afford living ending up broken homeless statistics. About 1/3 of people who see combat get stuck living with post traumatic stress disorder. A stat that is never talked up when recruiters go to high school and give their speeches or play war video games and eat pizza with 13 year olds.

One of my friends was in the group who shot some of Saddam's children. When he tried phoning his mother to talk about what Iraq was like (and his mental state) they cut of the phone line. That was a message they don't want to let even his own mom hear.

And all the fucked up things I mentioned in this post are part of HOW THE MILITARY TREATS THEIR OWN. IMAGINE HOW INHUMANE THEY ARE TO OTHERS!!!

Being in the military is what largely shaped my view of how it works and why people pushing for blind military support and blind trust of authority is so wrong. If you want to blindly support politicans abusing the military grab a gun and get on the front line. Otherwise your talk is just like a politicians - empty rhetoric.

SEOBook is right

The conservative government Hawks are mostly Chicken-Hawks who never served in the military. Most of them did everything they could to avoid going to Vietnam when they had the chance. I don’t know of any Chicken-Hawks who have children fighting in the military either.

Most of the people that I know who are pro-war have never been in the military. They think its somehow glamorous send others to go fight to the death but are unwilling to do it themselves. (Unlike SEOBook who was in the military.)

It’s never too late to serve your country. If the military won’t accept you, I’m sure a private contractor will be more than happy to send you into a war zone. Don’t just sit there and argue with liberals. Go to Iraq and fight for what you believe in. Don’t just say it. Go do it like SEOBook did.

Wow you have only been doing

Wow you have only been doing SEO since around September 11th Aaron? I don't know how I missed that one, hmm; this makes me your elder, kidding.

I know a few guys who went into the military, one crazy assed guy who went elite and into Special Forces and one who took up drinking and got discharged and is now into computers. I used to hangout with the Special Forces guy when he was home and do fun/crazy stuff like off road 4x4'ing, getting into fights and partying way too hard. The guy was a war machine and was either hiding it well or as I believe loved the taste of blood and action. He was happy hanging out in the belly of a ship, bunker and waiting for combat, a perfect fearless specimen really.

So I guess what I am saying is there are those who enjoy being machines, going to war, killing and they often come home and become leaders, but there are also those who are more sensitive people like you Aaron. Just like vietnam, many men just could not live with what they had done while others did very well when back home in the USA.

Neither is incorrect but for you to say that the military sucks is just a view from someone who should have never been in the military. It also proves my point that pacifists can and never will understand the business of fighting those who threaten our way of life around the world.

You either are a fighter or you are not and neither side can and will understand each other so they must function separately. The problem is while our forces our doing their jobs our media is working to dirty their reputation. I believe it really is the end of our way of life if we allow feelings into what needs to be done to save ourselves.

Think of what it would take to strap yourself with explosives or fly a plane into a tower??? We are not fighting a culture we can reason with, it is a cult and the only way to beat this enemy is by allowing our forces to be just as evil.

BUT there is a major problem, America can not handle the truth about war. See why they used to keep the battle away from the media? I pray that the military can somehow create some sort of shadow government in the near future that can take care of things while we live our lives. Our president can't even get the tools he needs to allow a first strike, how scary is that?

Now back to other stuff, this talk makes me insane sorry.

I pray that the military

I pray that the military can somehow create some sort of shadow government

i think you're prayers have been answered.

what it would take to strap yourself with explosives

Absolute desperation of those who have had all opportunity taken away.

I pray that the military can somehow create some sort of shadow government in the near future that can take care of things while we live our lives.

Oh, I see. You want a result that happens without voting for it, campaigning for it, or personal responsibility.

Nah, I am mainly talking

Nah, I am mainly talking about less media coverage of the insanity and brutality of war, those who can not handle it do not need to see it day in and day out. The stuff that is happening today is from things that the world ignored and swept under the carpet for years. This media inspired blame game also is only used to win elections and is extremely dangerous when it puts our troops in danger and fires up radicals hatred even more.

Meanwhile in a tent somewhere a crazy cult member who can barely read English see's the choice of pictures the media used to drive their spin home to discredit the republicans during the last election. The image is from Salon.com and it is a picture of Dick Cheney with a Nazi like flag behind his head. It is touched up to make it look like he is the great Satan. The next day this poor man goes down to his local mosque and offers to blow people up for Allah.

The shadow government thing I chucked in as a little linkbaiting for you conspiracy theorists.

God I hate politics, I will not be commenting further, very depressing stuff, I fear for my 4 year olds future these days.

The US could take a good

The US could take a good look at Israel's never ending troubles and realise that military confrontation with a race (as opposed to a dictator like Hitler) will just stoke the flames and come back 10 times harder.

Oh, you mean they know that already?

The biggest problem

Quote:
The conservative government Hawks are mostly Chicken-Hawks who never served in the military. Most of them did everything they could to avoid going to Vietnam when they had the chance. I don’t know of any Chicken-Hawks who have children fighting in the military either.

You hit the nail on the head. That is the biggest problem with all these hawks who push for wars with ridiculous reasons. They don't serve in the military, their family doesn't, they have no vested interest in the lives of American soldiers. Just like our press secretary said when asked about the death toll in Iraq coming up on 2500, "it's just a number".

Each number represents a family destroyed, kids who will grow up without a parent, and a lifetime of pain for all the people the individual touched. The individuals who cry for war in our government and on talk radios don't deal with this. The Ann Coulters and Rush Limbaughs of the world ride around in limos with bodyguards. They've never stood on the frontlines of a war, been away from their families for years, or dealt with death like this. They are cowards who sacrifice the lives of Americans for their own political agendas.

I have never been more disgusted with our country than I am right now. We are sacrificing good Americans so that our President can appease his friends and push his political agendas.

I’m surrounded with military personnel

Living in Hawaii, I’m surrounded with military personnel. My wife and I both have several friends in the military or a spouse in the military. My brother in-law is also in the military. The deployments to Afghanistan and Iraq are seriously dreaded. I’ve never met anyone who actually wants to go over there. Most are doing whatever they can to be reassigned to other types of duties to avoid that kind of deployment. I try my best to avoid the topic of politics with my military friends because most somewhat support Bush, but I never hear any support for the war in Iraq in general, just concerns and complaints.

The closest thing to support for the war comes in the form of complaints about the media not showcasing some of the positive rebuilding efforts where they did something like rebuilt a bridge that they had destroyed earlier.

The extra long deployments are very rough on the family. My wife has a friend with two young boys. Both of them sometimes call me as well as other men “Daddy” because they haven’t seen their father in so long. She’s on the verge of a divorce. Getting sent to Iraq or Afghanistan creates real problems even if you don’t get killed.

The cost of war is mind-boggling!

Let’s also not forget why we went to war with Iraq in the first place. “Weapons Of Mass Destruction”. They were said to have huge stockpiles of them and were building nuclear weapons. The war was going to be a “Cake Walk” and the oil revenues would pay for the war.

None of these things turned out to be true.

Here is a link to quotes from the Bush Administration on Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction Capabilities. Looking back it makes me wonder what they were smoking.
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/static/npp/bush_admin_quotes.cfm

It’s not just the terrible miscalculations and loss of lives that upsets me. It’s also the huge amount of cash war consumes that might be better spent elsewhere.

The final tally for the war in Iraq is predicted to be over $1 Trillion Dollars. I can’t even comprehend a number that size.

A trillion is what you get if you spend a million dollars a day ... for a million days! That's 2,737 years - a cool mil a day, every day, in other words, until the year 4743.

It’s not like we have that kind of money just sitting around. We were already seriously in debt before the war. All this money is borrowed as well. We need to repay this war dept with interest.

Neither is incorrect but for

Neither is incorrect but for you to say that the military sucks is just a view from someone who should have never been in the military. It also proves my point that pacifists can and never will understand the business of fighting those who threaten our way of life around the world.

If I never should have been in the military it makes you wonder while the country was in dire need that it was reasonable to have me lead complex reactor plant evolutions?

It really proves nothing other than the fact that the military is broken and disinterested in the feedback members have to provide for it. And that they would rather do what they can to see a man die or be put in a position so that they can make an example of him rather than let him go if he does not fit in their worldview and system.

Did I also mention how my boat not only destroyed some of my work records, but my executive officer destroyed much of the paperwork associated with me asking for help as well?

You either are a fighter or you are not and neither side can and will understand each other so they must function separately.

The question is What are you fighting for?

Like Littleman, I fear one huge internal enemy with absolute power much more than a bunch of small distant ones.

The problem is while our forces our doing their jobs our media is working to dirty their reputation. I believe it really is the end of our way of life if we allow feelings into what needs to be done to save ourselves.

It is just a shame that what needs to be done to save ourselves often involves destroying other societies for the greater good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor#The_Indonesians

flip side of that coin

Born in the early sixties means I have no service duty. Too young or too old. Doesn't mean I can't think for myself, and most certainly doesn't mean I don't have a valid opinion. You do not need to serve to know enough.

Someone asked those supporting current efforts to pick up a gun and go fight. How about those protesting? How many of you SEO for good causes? Pro-bono work to raise awareness beyond your own website. It's so easy to resist as an individual. Too bad that never works. You have to resist as a member of a group, which means you have to get along with somebody. If you can't find a group you get along with, that should tell you something about the value of your opinion in the world. Not that it's not valid, just that it may not be a sustainable position.

>How many of you SEO for

>How many of you SEO for good causes?

I have in many ways. Even went out of pocket on SEM too.

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