Search Engine Optimizers: Is Our language Our Own Worst Enemy

29 comments

Two things have made me step back and look at just how Search Engine Optimization is perceived by decision makers outside of the industry. (I'll leave the "Isn't that Spam?" argument out of this conversation.)

  1. A number of my friends from college have taken on major decision making roles in the marketing divisions of Fortune 500 brands and have asked for my advice in helping them understand SEO in order to inform their Search Marketing Vendor and In-House Search Marketing Staff decision making processes.
  2. I've recently taken a position where I will be doing online marketing for Fortune 500 Brands.

I've pointed them to some of the major search marketing resources out there including: ThreadWatch (of course), Search Engine Watch, Search Engine Roundtable (especially their roundup of Search Engine Strategies) and SEOMOZ (especially their Beginners Guide to SEO). However the most common response I get from these decision makers is "WTF are these people talking about?!" (especially when people at these sites name drop people without a link!).

To the everyday marketer in a decision making role, the common language of SEO is not the language of marketing and this seems to be a major problem (especially in the learning curve). For example, I recently sent a friend of mine from a major credit card company over to SEOMOZ and after reading a few articles, this response basically sums up the responses I generally get when I refer people to sites, "It's like I have to learn another language just to understand this industry!" (Why are we making our own jobs harder!)

A few months ago in an email conversation with someone from the board at Search Marketing Association of North America, I said I hoped that part of their job would be to find a way to make the language of SEO accessible to the everyday marketer. However the response was that this was not part of their official duties... I was dismayed.

I generally find that when I say to people forget all the industry language you read (and ignore the multitude of acronyms you come across) and consider SEO, Performance Based Marketing, they have an "Oh I get it!" moment. But this is not enough...

So how can we as Search Marketers cut down the language barrier that separates us from the big bucks that major brand marketers have to spend? How can we cut down on the learning curve that we have created? How can we ensure that Online Agencies, PR Firms, Word of Mouth Marketers & Buzz Marketers, etc. - who understand the basics of SEO and the language of marketing don't end up making SEO companies (who for the most part, don't speak the common language of marketing) obsolete?

I'm sighing because I never want to see that happen (for example: one of these decision makers went with an online agency who is new to SEO simply because they spoke the same language)... My Friday/Weekend Rant Post is complete....

Comments

clickz recentely quoted Matt

clickz recentely quoted Matt Cutts as saying it's amazing how much of SEO comes back to basic marketing.

On the one hand it's true - and if you are an amature SEO it's even more so. But on the other hand, there are so many things that can still be done to increase search traffic that have nothing to do with common sense or basic marketing.

I've never tried to "Sell" SEO services, so perhaps it is an issue. But it seems to me that a specialized language is more of an advantage than a disadvantage. If it were too simple, why would anyone need a consultant?

Any good SEO can sell their services

However you made a couple of points

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How can we cut down on the learning curve that we have created?

Why would we want to? It seems to me that all the highest paid professions have their own language which the majority cannot understand.

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How can we ensure that Online Agencies, PR Firms, Word of Mouth Marketers & Buzz Marketers, etc. - who understand the basics of SEO and the language of marketing don't end up making SEO companies (who for the most part, don't speak the common language of marketing) obsolete?

Isn't this rather obvious - you just get higher rankings than they do :)

does it matter?

there's a difference between dealing with clients/potential clients and talking to each other. If you know nothing about marketing and turn up in the middle of a marketing convention you're not going to know your ROI from your ABC and if you're a garage mechanic you have the same problems explaining your big end to the general public, so the fact that a discussion is available online doesn't mean it *has* to be accessible to all in the truest sense imho (sorry Marissa!)

These type of forums are, for the most part, industry gatherings, I'm not saying online fora don't accept and often welcome people who want to learn but if they have to learn a new language then, er, they have to learn a new language. The fact that some of us can translate (most of) the techie/industry specific stuff into actual understandable english when talking to clients is part of our USP and I have many clients don't have a clue what "performance based marketing" is so modifying the language to include one group (say marketeers) isn't going to help (small business owners).

Tell 'em to RTFM ;)

>>edit - sorry for repeating your point Kali - I took a long time to post that :) /

Tell 'em to RTFM ;) once

Quote:
Tell 'em to RTFM ;)

once they have RT 1st FM, they should RT 2nd FM IMO

Secret Language

I've just had a lawyer draw up some wills for me and we're working on a contract. After reading it I kinda got it, but I did have to call up my lawyer and in a few places say exactly what does this or that mean. He's able translate it into non-legal speak, and since he's a friend as well I trust him. If it were someone I didn't have a prior relationship with I'd still have to put a certain amount of trust that the secret language it's written in says not only what I want it to say and mean, but is what he is telling me it says and means.

So to some extent I get it, but unless I really want to invest the time and learn the language I'll always be defendant on the experts, and if I were a lawyer I don't know that that is bad thing, that I would want to change.

I think there's an

I think there's an underlying misapprehension here : that SEO and related activites are simply traditional marketing in a new medium.

They are not, IMO. What we are seeing is the evolution of something new, that is just starting to evolve away from the parent species; apparently, the 2 can't really cross-breed any more, and the differences will become more pronounced over time. Since the new species seems to be by far the more adaptable, I expect the old one will start to die out fairly soon

SEO and related activities simply are traditional marketing

TallTroll - have to disagree with you man.

If you break it up into camps, what you really get is a lot of "traditional marketing" guys who don't want to learn all the new "techy" stuff, and a lot of "new school SEOs" that have no clue about market research, branding/identity, message, or conversion.

Really, the ideal marketing guy would see it's all the same thing:

Research your target customer.
Reach your target customer.
Provide what the target customer is looking for.

The original issue, as far as I can see, is effectively being able to speak the same language as the guy that signs the check, and whether the language and terminology SEOs regularly use is sufficient to communicate with the old guard.

Since you have to understand and custom tailor your delivery to the specific audience in most situations, in the end I'd say that this thread is almost just the result of a slow news day. :)

Every specialized knowledge area has its jargon

Think about many of the standard marketing terms bandied about: "below the line", "grey market".... I really doubt that my mother, a teacher, would know these terms. Yet she could tell you a lot about remedial reading.

It thus seems quite natural that forums comprised of subject domain practitioners will be difficult to comprehend. A Marketing Manager who comes across terms like “302 redirect” and “canonical problems” will feel like a fish out of water. This is not a language problem, this is a knowledge problem.

A true problem does arise if introductory guides oriented at laymen are similarly incomprehensible – but I suspect the issue isn't the use of language but rather the inevitable discussion of the linguistic / social and technical issues which comprise SEO/SEM.

"WTF are these people

"WTF are these people talking about?!"

Just what you want to hear from decision makers. :)

The language of SEO isn't the problem - it's simply taking the time to learn about the basics.

What SEO is

SEO is the long-term, initially dramatic, maintainence and tweaking of a web application that appeals to users in a way that explicitly puts accessibility ahead of bells and whistles; designed for the express purpose of creating long-term mindshare dominance for key phrases the human gestalt(*) is more or less likely to repeatedly type in a potentially lucrative situation.

It is the syngery of design, outreach, marketting, usability and the underlying engineering that allows all this to co-exist in a more or less efficient manner, despite the constant friction that each of those disciplines impose on each other (for instance: the desire of design and management to implement image-only navigation bars).

Thus, I personally laugh when I see people who claim to be SEOs but do not know PHP or similar. You have to be an innovative programmer and generally an excellent manager capable of swaying co-workers and management alike into accepting decisions they normally would be very opposed to (such as moving to a new domain after the existing one has been heavily penalized by sloppy SEO).

Because of these and other demanding requirements (such as constant re-education), 99.9% of all SEOs are charlatans, yes even here. It's a constant battle against Search Engines that seek ever increasing ad revenue from sites that "don't make it", a list which inexorably grows with the same assurity and ferociousness as the Bush regime's encroachment on privacy and civil liberties.

* [gestalt]: A physical, biological, psychological, or symbolic configuration or pattern so unified as a whole that its properties cannot be derived from a simple summation of its parts. E.g. the overall search trends of the human species for any particular domain of ideas.

right resources?

I've pointed them to some of the major search marketing resources out there including: ThreadWatch (of course), Search Engine Watch, Search Engine Roundtable (especially their roundup of Search Engine Strategies) and SEOMOZ

as Gutie says above, these places are established industry discussion at the nitty gritty end of things.

Something like Clickz may be better suited. Though UK focussed, netimperative.com or e-consultancy.com may also be useful.

Lol what does knowing PHP

Lol what does knowing PHP (or similar) have to do with your ability at SEO? While I agree some basic technical understanding of web programming stuff helps it is by no means necessary.

I don't know shit about php, asp, .net, JS, whatever - I know HTML reasonably well and I can knock together a website using an HTML editor if I need to. But I assure you I can rip the arse out a site that's been spamming and throw them a solution quicker than Cutts can and many of my clients (and people I've had to train) have excellent far superior tech backgrounds to me (IT managers, web developers, etc).

If you need something more than basic HTML to effectively optimise a website then you're doing something wrong.

Constant re-education? I've been SEOing sites using exactly the same principles since 2001-2002 and still doing fine thanks. Only changes really are that some of the borderline greyhat stuff that used to work no longer does.

SEO is only difficult when things go wrong and that's where the money is (and where strong technical skills can be a notable bonus) - it's tough for newbies to cut the crap from all the information out there and it's not easy to get lucky in success these days.

As an agency, 60% or so of my clients came from other agencies and either had be penalised or just weren't ranking. 95% of the problems and questions they had I could answer right away without a great deal of tech knowledge - the other 5% is simply dealing with sites that had setup complex methods of cloaking, or otherwise confusing / cheating search engines.

Hope, I agree with your gestalt analogy - more from a project management perspective than a consultantancy one though - I don't think it's necessary for SEO's to know specific technologies - just know enough about them to make good decisions and prioritise different aspects.

It really depends on the individuals though. Have you ever worked on a web related project such as a website build, led by a graphic designer? Ugh....absolute hell on earth! :)

Personally I think the SEO industry is becoming less tech focused if anything, and more marketing driven - recent bigdaddy changes have lead to the need for a much more qualititative approach to link building for example. This is good for the language barrier issue as it reduces the need to explain certain technical elements as fully as the general process can be caveated as the need to create a useful, compelling and interesting website, which is (IMO) an easier pitch.

Thanks Marketing Guy, you

Thanks Marketing Guy, you saved me a mini-rant on that php or similar stuff.

I think one problem with this discussion is that it started off with a wrong premise: trying to introduce people to search engine optimization rather than search engine marketing.

What MG said

IMO, the highly technical stuff, while important in some cases, has little to do with SEO success in most cases, at least when speaking of Web sites whose main goal has nothing to do with spamming.

Traditional marketng is not rocket science, but the best people do sorta have an intuitive feel for it. Linear thinkers, for example, don't do well in decision making roles in traditional marketing. It takes an ability to see relationships between entities: relationships between similar and competiting media vehicles; relationships between a given media vehicle and its target consumers' mindsets and behaviors; relationships between purchasing patterns and produce benefits, and so on ... i.e., things that are not always obvious.

SEM is the same. The best people see relationships between entities that reveal opportunities few others see.

As for the language of SEO, as others have said, most specialized fields have a language that managers don't fully get. Ever been in a meeting between a CEO and a mid-level IT manager? Hehe ... they need translators.

Personally my sense is that the main reason traditional business/marketing folks want to understand the language of SEO is because they naively believe that if they just got the meaning of the words down, they wouldn't need to pay the prices the best SEO can command; they are not sure that they need "SEO experts" ... they don't trust us. A good lawyer might suggest to us that the language of SEO ain't complicated enough. ;-) But what's really needed IMHO is not for the decision makers to "get" the language ... it's for them to read or witness a few real world success stories that open their eyes to the value a good SEO/SEM, can bring to their business.

Recently I was involved in a situation where we were about to go to work for a really interesting small client in a big and fast growing pond. We were ready to start, with a very eager CEO/founder, when word came down that his investors "did not really believe in SEO" and the deal fell apart. You could say we were the losers, 'cause we didn't get an assignment that we were really looking forward do. But the real loser was the CEO and his investors. What the CEO "got" but the investors didn't get, was that given the nature of their business and the poor quality of the site, and the importance of the site to their offline/online business, every dollar spent with a good SEO would probably have returned between 5X and 10X the investment, maybe more. If those investors had heard a few less horror stories, or a few more success stories, it would have made a difference.

in that case two :)

I'm not entirely convinced that SEM is analogous with Performance Based Marketing either - SEO possibly is but SEM is harder to measure I'd say....

Totally agree with you

Totally agree with you Caveman. I was in a similar situation myself recently.

I do think there are offsetting factors though. More people being afraid of the field means that those who have earned enough trust to be worthy of hiring can probably charge more than they otherwise might be able to.

wow...MarketingGuy

I was going to stay out of this until you said

Quote:
Constant re-education? I've been SEOing sites using exactly the same principles since 2001-2002 and still doing fine thanks. Only changes really are that some of the borderline greyhat stuff that used to work no longer does.

SEO is only difficult when things go wrong and that's where the money is (and where strong technical skills can be a notable bonus) - it's tough for newbies to cut the crap from all the information out there and it's not easy to get lucky in success these days.

As an agency, 60% or so of my clients came from other agencies and either had be penalised or just weren't ranking. 95% of the problems and questions they had I could answer right away without a great deal of tech knowledge - the other 5% is simply dealing with sites that had setup complex methods of cloaking, or otherwise confusing / cheating search engines.

Wow. You ARE the agency I keep stealing clients from!

You're reflecting a market bias, that's all. You are getting clients of a certain type because that is where you are positioned. The fact that you are blind to that is further evidence of the rift between what we in SEO often call "wannabee seos" and SEOs. I thought that was what Natasha posted about. There's marketers and there's SEOs, and lately the marketers have been thinking they are SEOs. I blame MSN because a title tag gets you to the top. I blame Google because a viral blog post about your grandmother's chimpanzee's intestinal distress gets you to the top for "pet food allergies". I blame Yahoo because 17 hyphenated keyword domains aliasing the same website can get you the entire third page, and "enough" se traffic to claim success.

When you say you don't need to know PHP, ASP, blah blah blah... you give it away. PHP gives you access to http... that thing you skip on the URL line. If you don't know what http is about, you are not an SEO. If you don't know how ASP or LAMP works, you're not close to the data segmentation field...and you're not a serious SEO. Serious onlinemarketer? Sure. "Search Marketer"?.. I don't care. But that's not SEO.

Let me re-cap:

Quote:
Constant re-education? I've been SEOing sites using exactly the same principles since 2001-2002 and still doing fine thanks. Only changes really are that some of the borderline greyhat stuff that used to work no longer does.

Same principals since 2002 and still doing "fine"? You are clearly not in a competitive SERP. That's fine, but let's not exaggerate and say you are doing SEO.

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SEO is only difficult when things go wrong and that's where the money is (and where strong technical skills can be a notable bonus)

In other words, you don't fnd it difficult until you don't understand it, and then it is expensive (because you have to hire a real SEO I'm guessing?)

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- it's tough for newbies to cut the crap from all the information out there and it's not easy to get lucky in success these days.

Another observation that gives away the lie. There is no luck in SEO, so if you are waiting around to "get lucky" that's a good clue that you don't know what you're doing. Then again, maybe you can hope your competitor pisses off his senior tech guy and gets his DNS hosed as a way for you to move up a spot... but then again that's not always "luck" either as I have bought many a "senior tech guy" lunch in my day. The ones that have to work for clueness marketing-type supervisors are the easiest targets IMHO.

Quote:
As an agency, 60% or so of my clients came from other agencies and either had be penalised or just weren't ranking. 95% of the problems and questions they had I could answer right away without a great deal of tech knowledge - the other 5% is simply dealing with sites that had setup complex methods of cloaking, or otherwise confusing / cheating search engines.

You say all this, and you still claim you are doing SEO? You're selecting your projects (and your clients are selecting you), and it sounds like 95% of what you see is obvious (by your own admission). Either you're not seeing anything that isn't obvious, or you're working in niche markets where a clean site ranks at the top. Let's see you rank top 3 for "Seattle lawyer" using your advanced SEO skillz.

There's so much desire to rank and the SEs have mucked things up so bad anybody can hang out a shingle and say they "optimize for search engines" and even impress a large percentage of the clients. BFD. Any baseball player can stand on the mound and throw the ball to the catcher. Does that make him a pitcher?

Now that, Natasha, is a rant.

So how can we as Search

So how can we as Search Marketers cut down the language barrier that separates us from the big bucks that major brand marketers have to spend? How can we cut down on the learning curve that we have created?

If we cut down on this all we have done is make it easier for other people to do our jobs. The language is partly what separates us from regular marketers. If we cut down on the learning curve then every marketing shmoe in the world will try to SEO. I've had a lot of regular marketers at companies ask me all sorts of questions about SEO, and how to go about doing it. My sense is that they were trying to pump me for information because they thought they were qualified to do it themselves. If we break down the language barrier, and learning curve then we may as well be regular marketers. I do agree that core marketing principles apply to the SEO, but we are far from average marketers, because of the technical side of the business. In my opinion SEO is marketing PLUS almost every aspect of web design and development. Therfore there is no reason to break down the language barrier, or learning curve. Keep me seperate from all the other marketing chumps.

Sorry to dissapoint John,

Sorry to dissapoint John, but I've only ever lost one client and that's because he was spamming repeatedly without telling me and then moaned about not getting results. :P

>> Competitive industry

A personal site a setup when I was a SEO newbie - used Frontpage - the code is shockingly bad, does nothing special (technically) at all other than have decent content and follow basic SEO principles. Live for 4 years, ranked in top 10 for a generic two word phrase for the past 3 (currently number 3, alongside multinational corps + newspapers) - 189 million competiting pages (decent traffic levels, although not as large as the competiting page count suggests) - also ranks top 3, usually number 1 for hundreds of related industry terms. It's fine for me. ;)

> In other words, you don't fnd it difficult until you don't understand it, and then it is expensive (because you have to hire a real SEO I'm guessing?)

No, 95% of what I do is more than enough for any site to get by and rank well (excluding industries which require more BH type of SEO, which I have no experience with). Usually I could find a solution if I tried, but when you have other people in the team to deal with those cases then it doesn't become an issue.

>> There is no luck in SEO, so if you are waiting around to "get lucky" that's a good clue that you don't know what you're doing

Didn't claim to be waiting to get lucky. IMO getting lucky is buying a decent, quality, well respected site for cheap and redeveloping it with shit "SEO" content - that is harder these days compared to a few years ago. The talent and skill lies in creating the quality site in the first place.

>> Either you're not seeing anything that isn't obvious, or you're working in niche markets where a clean site ranks at the top.

Various markets; various sizes; don't select my clients other than not working in PPC industries.

> There's so much desire to rank and the SEs have mucked things up so bad anybody can hang out a shingle and say they "optimize for search engines" and even impress a large percentage of the clients

Hehe very true. But that brings us back to the need for client education.

----

I would consider myself far from being an expert in the company of fellow TWers - I have no dillusions and know fine well that a lot of people could both display and implement a great deal more SEO knowledge than I.

But that said I feel no real need to defend or justify my skills - I know my success and what I can do, as do my clients. ;)

I recently left a large SEO agency (back in January) - since then about 40% of my clients have contacted me asking me to work for them privately (which I couldn't) - that's a testiment to the ideas and knowledge I gave them.

I would view SEO as a part of SEM, and I think I probably focus more on SEM as a whole in terms of a qualitative approach to marketing a site.

I guess there will always be a divide in the industry - while it would be ammusing to watch a marketing professional attempt to learn PHP, I think I'd rather take the front row to watch the tech guy try to develop long term viable marketing success for any site.

Fortunately most of the people here are somewhere in between (a natural development due to the nature of the industry) - people who are both business and tech savvy.

There's an insane lack of tech understanding within the marketing industry, just as the tech industry can lack the business acumen / creativeness of marketing professionals - that's where we fit in. The ability to communicate a strategy between both is where the gap was in the industry and it's beginning to close.

Sure some people are SEO and tech. Others are SEO and marketing. Or web design and graphic design. Or accountant and office manager. Or secretary and events coordinator.

People within offices adapt to changing needs and skill gaps, just as niche industries do within larger markets. It's not a sign or weakness nor is it a sign that the end is nigh because someone else can do your job. It's just the natural course of things.

It would help if again, we

It would help if again, we could stop looking at this question as SEOs, (whatever that is?), and look at the broader picture as marketing people or as some might see, salespeople.

The answer lies in two questions. What is the objective and who is setting it.

If the answer to the first part is more adsense money from my shadowed domains, then who cares what language is used? It doesn't matter what is said if you are the only person speaking or listening, (or refusing to listen if you happen to be an SEO, whatever that is). You can call a shadow quality content if you so choose and it doesn't matter as long as your adsense revenue goes up because you were the one setting the objective.

If however, YOUR objective is to get more SEO, (whatever that is?), business from an ad agency, if you don't speak the language THEY understand, then THEY will not see how what you are saying to them is going to help them meet THEIR objective. So,in this case, you lose.

Whoever is setting the objective, as a very first step, has to understand the data being presented and understand how that data is going to help them. If they do not understand, you can call THEM an idiot the whole time you are standing in the unemployment linebut you will still be out of work.

If you want money from a client for a specific service and you are not speaking to them in terms they understand, you can call them stupid or watch TV. It pays about the same.

If anyone knows proper spam

If anyone knows proper spam they'll do it for themselves, not for a client. I don't think the consumers of SEO need to worry about it happening on their sites.

They need to be more worried about cheesy tricks that don't help them much anyway. Those are hardly worthy of the name "spam"

what caveman said

Quote:
Ever been in a meeting between a CEO and a mid-level IT manager? Hehe ... they need translators

Shhh...you jus' gave away 50% of corporate SEO...understanding BOTH languages and personality types.

29% is being willing to be the responsible party for making the decisions (somebody's gotta pull the damn trigger), having a good track record and credibility

20% knowing the right people, and knowing how to ask the right questions at the right time

1% is all the other stuff

Simply put... The huge demand for SEO in the corporate space is CREATED by the communication breakdown between techies, marketing, and execs...don't be in TOO big of a hurry to explain to them how to talk to each other... As soon as they figure it out...everybody except those who made it big will be forced back to dayjobs "working for the man";)

The big guys are scrambling because they've been playing tetris at their desks all day while the little guys were listening, learning, and implementing to compete on the newly leveled playing field. Ya don't want to ENCOURAGE playing tetris during work hours now do you?

I encourage playing Tetris in working hours...

..for anyone working for my competitors :)

A rant is never a well thought out post - lol!

Wow, glad I posted that... I wrote it after my friend told me that their company decided to go with the online agency who was new to SEO simply because, "they made sense to us." That pissed me off becuase I thought is this the face of things to come? That lesser qualified entities who "also do SEO" will get accounts because they've bridged the language gap that we've created.

And John what you wrote wasn't a rant.... it was an opus! LOL!

Competitive Fields

Try maintaining websites for corporations that *have* to have 100s of thousands of pages, all adequately crawled, just to adequately capture the market space; and on top of that, focus on roughly 100 entities of different categories (apples, oranges, supermarkets, cities, etc) for keyphrases that have a mean allintitle: of 30,000 and mean results in the tens of millions.

Until you have the problems of 1,000s of products, the subsequent duplicate content quagmires, tainted domains from past abuses, and competitors with 100s of thousands of deep backlinks, I do not believe you can qualify yourself as an SEO.

I guess in the end there needs to be some sort of certification :-)

You're right. Policeman who

You're right. Policeman who work countryside beats aren't really policeman because they don't deal with city type issues.

Big brands are a walk in the park - *creating* the big brand from a small brand is a challenge.

using the big words

as is often the case, caveman and stuntdubl correctly assess that most of the money is somewhere in the middle.

too often "tech guys" and "marketing guys" look at each other like enemies. in point of fact, both describe sides of an equation that can't be balanced without working together. a good SEO speaks both languages, can translate, and help the business as a whole do better.

that said, i've found that using intimidating language (i.e. science jargon) is about one of the quickest ways to establish credibility and shut a mouthy client up. often they want to ensure you have a certain level of expertise (which they feel is evidenced by using big words) in order to feel secure.

weird, and kinda sad, but it works.

opus schmopus

:-)

Seriously, though, you don't need to be a big corporation to build out 100k pages in order to dominate (I know of at least one independent who does that pretty well :-). Also, I don't believe you need to go up against competitors with 100k deep rooted backlinks to consider yourself an SEO (especially in today's Google). I could explain that more, by why should I?

One big difference between an SEO working for a corp with a large site and an independent SEO working a large site for commercial gain, is the independent SEO has a decided advantage in site architecture. It's much easier to build and deploy (properly) on plan, that to fix and adjust and re-structure a corporate website. And I am not even addressing the chainof command and such... just the process.

I think this SEW thread on

I think this SEW thread on measuring ROI on SEM illustrates the intersection of traditional and online marketing and can easily be understood by those on both ends.

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