Wired Publishes Full Text of Government Snooping Docs

41 comments

Wired published whistle-blower documents related to the AT&T & NSA spying coop. They also posted why they published them.

Comments

Spying

Thank God for Wired... This is an outrage. I don't think my calls to Grandma are anything some men in black should be hearing.

Holy cow! This isn't just

Holy cow! This isn't just about listening to telephone conversations. This is part of the supposedly dead 'Total Information Awarness' program (TIA). The government is building databases filled with information on each and every citizen.

No, this one's not just a conspiracy theory!

One of AT&T's databases,

One of AT&T's databases, known as "Hawkeye," contains 312 terabytes of data detailing nearly every telephone communication on AT&T's domestic network since 2001, according to the complaint.

from this article:

http://wired.com/news/technology/0,70126-0.html

Seriously one of the most chilling things I've ever heard of our goverrment doing.

The land of the free

What a joke. The founding fathers must be turning in their graves.

Having been a DBA...

...this system sounds pretty slick:

AT&T's Daytona

Yes, what the gov did was pretty nasty. The class-action will be quashed in one way or another. $22K per user...wow (if it ever happened).

SB

Remember this shit come election time!

Right now they are trying to stir up another BS issue like national language to distract folks from this. Don't play the puppet this time.

The AG

Gonzales announced yesterday that they're seriously considering prosecuting the journalists who reveal the big secret that the government is criminal. If Nixon had been this bad, we never would have seen the Pentagon Papers, and we probably wouldn't have found out about Watergate.

IMO, that's what this is really about. The current administration contains some Nixon vets (Cheney and Rummy) who are out to give the executive branch all the power it lost after Nixon and much more.

Nothing New

Don't buy into the naive hype, things like this have been going on for ages.

Echelon anyone?

This is nothing new but it's hysterical hype at it's finest getting the people that can't think past the news clips to rally in a frenzy.

Pay attention, class is in session:

a) how many phone calls go thru the US in a day?

b) how much computing horsepower does it take to do speech analysis?

If you have a clue about either answer, you would know that snooping on every phone call is still virtually impossible based on the total volume of calla and total CPU power required to interpret them all.

Most likely, it's just a small subset of calls being monitored, those making calls to Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran or Iraq would probably be targets for NSA monitoring.

unless you are trying to misguide people...

Read about it before you try to debunk it.

No, it is not just a small subset of calls being monitored.

The phone companies are

The phone companies are giving the government records of calls, not the calls themselves. They're building a DB to track who calls whom, when, and for how long, not what they say. Believe me, this is bad enough.

If I regularly call someone who happens to call someone who happens to call someone who regularly calls someone in Pakistan, I expect that's enough for my records to be flagged.

and for those who think it

and for those who think it is something of limited scale, the anomaly sure hits home a lot harder when it hits you or someone you know. especially with Guantanamo and them throwing people in jail for years at a time without even stating a claim.

Read about it?

I worked in telephony for a few years and have known people that did um, how shall I say "security activities" before. There are things that go on without warrants that aren't even mentioned in this latest scandal.

It is very unlikely based on the current state of computing power and storage requirements that everything is being monitored, but it's possible there's a lot of random scanning going on.

If it was all as simplistic as this hysterical news story would have you believe, things like 9/11 and Oklahoma City never would've happened in the first place.

Are you in a bubble world or just love to troll?

If this were an isolated incident I might understand your perspective, but if you couple this surveillance with warrantless wire tapping you have a very ugly situation.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Ben Franklin

no politics

I really hate talking about politics, it's just not good for business, but this, net neutrality and a handful of other issues lately, really accentuates the disconnect the government has with a lot it's constituents. For me it's just really disappointing.

bubble world

Yup. And plenty of people live like that (a wee bit more than 50% by my last observation). It is much, much easier to live that way:

  • everthing scary is a "conspiracy theory". Therefore not only may you relax, but you may use the conspiracy theorists for comedic value, which makes life even easier.
  • everything dreadful becomes "unlikely", which means that you can take actions to mitigate the risk. That makes you feel better. Certainly better than feeling helpless.
  • Good people gone bad are scary and dreadful. They remove hope and instill fear. Since you can't make them go away, you can live in a bubble world surrounded by bubbly neighbors and pretend it all doesn't exist. There are enough out for money that you get enough to persecute (e.g. Ken Lay) and that, too helps you overlook the ones *only* out for power or the simple fukwits.
Quote:
Although he may have been idealistic at first, Cypher has grown tired of the Man/Machine war within the Matrix. Harshly disillusioned by the grim existence...and tired of following Morpheus and his blind faith of the Prophecy, he soon starts to wish he'd never learned the truth and left the Matrix in the first place. This prompts him to strike a deal with the Agents....Cypher secretly meets with the Agents once more, agreeing to turn Morpheus over to them if the Agents will return Cypher's body to the Matrix power plant with no knowledge of the Matrix...One of Cypher's most famous quotes from the movie is "Ignorance is bliss", which he utters while speaking with Agent Smith, referring to the state of people inside the Matrix. wikipedia

Bubble This

I never said I didn't believe they were doing it so don't twist my words which you obviously can't read in the first place.

I said based on the total call volume in the US and the computing power requirements to monitor everything, I seriously doubt they can scan all conversations similutanteously.

That didn't mean I don't believe they're scanning conversation , I just think the scope would have to be a little more focused is all. I could be wrong, but based on my current understanding of the state of the technology it's just hard to believe they have the digital horsepower available to do ALL calls, which is all I ever said.

With the amount of horsepower I assume they have, it would make sense to target all calls to/from the US to certain profile countries and all calls by people that communicate with those countries within the US.

I never said I disputed they could do it, I just disputed the scope is all. Doesn't mean that the scope of what they CAN do isn't damned scary, but I doubt they're tapping granny's conversation as low value targets are a waste of resources.

So if believing they have the power to process many but not ALL calls makes me live in a bubble, so be it.

>a waste of resources at one

>a waste of resources

at one point in my life I was on a submarine where a ~ $50 pump costed about $85,000. where there is waste there is profit potential.

Subway - eat fresh

But you know there are a limited number of submarines too, so you have to pick and choose where to deploy those subs - that's all I'm saying is it's a matter of resources.

I believe they're snooping, but I think they have to pick and choose out of the hundreds of millions or maybe billions of daily phone calls being processed.

However, the capacity will expand, computers get faster and cheaper daily, just because I don't think they can automate scanning all calls today doesn't mean that it can't be done in 5-10 years.

BTW, it's more likely that every email, instant message, website and blog post is being 100% monitored and not just by the government, by corporations worried about what people say about them and we've discussed companies that do that.

Obviously people expect privacy on their phone calls but they also expect it on instant messages and to a large part naively expect it on all the plain text emails zipping thru archaic mail servers than any admin can read at will on any server any time without a warrant, but nobody cares about that stuff, nope.

How many have actually read

How many have actually read the article?

This has nothing to do with listening to telephone conversations.

the flip side of the same coin, Painperdu

The warrantless wiretaps are a related issue. Together with phone call activity monitoring we have:
A) The ability to look at the calling patterns of all international and domestic calls within the United States.

B) The ability to listen to who they please without any legal due process or restrictions.

may as ad letter C to the

may as ad letter C to the above...

C) The ability to throw people in jail for years without even stating a claim of any sort.

And D

The ability to sign bills into law while stipulating that those laws need not, at the president's discretion, apply to the executive branch of the government.

Next Regime

Will have a chance to undo all this crap.

If they don't, then you'll know it's all about government snooping and not a party issue.

-

You mean
C) The ability to throw THE ENEMY COMBATANTS in jail for years without even stating a claim of any sort.

We're fighting against the largest group of shovanistic human rights violators in the world and all you can do is complain.

I'd think the ACLU Huggers and Human rights groups would be leading the front lines into these middle east countries to bring equal rights and freedom.

You all act like the govs going to come in and take your pot when they're trying to find why x number in Deerborn Michigan is calling a known terrorist satelite phone in Pakistan.

You all act like the govs

You all act like the govs going to come in and take your pot when they're trying to find why x number in Deerborn Michigan is calling a known terrorist satelite phone in Pakistan.

America's One-Million Nonviolent Prisoners

A Model of Freedom and Democracy for the World to Emulate ™

1 in 37 adults living in the United States is in prison or has served time there (that's more than 5.6 million Americans!!!)...the highest incarceration level in the world.

The prison population has quadrupled since 1980.

and a familiar thought related to racism, equality, human rights, etc.

"When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights, are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, extreme materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered.

A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death."
—Martin Luther King, Jr., Beyond Vietnam, Riverside Church, New York City, 4 April 1967

nice try seomike.

I'd think the ACLU Huggers

I'd think the ACLU Huggers and Human rights groups would be leading the front lines into these middle east countries to bring equal rights and freedom.

i love that definition of equal rights and freedom....somehow, it's become synonymous with unprovoked attacks (more commonly referred to as terrorism) and making sure every country embraces the US dollar as their preferred reserve currency (which is what ALL of this boils down to).

but these are all acts of desperation, doomed to failure (as we've already seen). in the mean time, sell dollars, buy euros.....

The Patriot Act is already

The Patriot Act is already being used in criminal (non-terror) investigations.

Ask Tommy Chong

>the govs going to come in and take your pot
That reminds me...

Tommy Chong said:
"You can tell they're lying by when their lips are moving. You know, look at our president, with the Weapons of Mass Destruction. I said that ¸ the only Weapons of Mass Destruction they found were my bongs."

Then he was basically set up by the DOJ and locked up for 9 months.

the story

Set up?

Oh stop the laughter, my sides, oh the pain.

He admitted he was busted for paraphenalia and so were a bunch of others...

“But I was selling bongs with my picture on ’em. And they said, ‘Well, this is Tommy Chong.’"

The stuff is illegal to sell regardless of what else he does or says, and he was doing it publicly, yup, he was set up alright, it's called "being made an example".

I'm going to invest heavily in ALCAN as it's obvious why their stock is soaring.

You see my left hand? It's on my right side, isn't it?

Bubble World: where all gets explained away rationally.
Propaganda: information which, in the proper context, it can be easily used to explain things rationally.

Sorry IB, but you're roots as something-other-than-a-marketer are showing. Marketers always know when they are being played. Some know they are always being played.

nice try seomike.

Dude all you've shown is that we take crime seriously... From Enron execs to punk non violent juveniles.

A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death

Don't feed me quotes from Martin Luther King. Your ACLU buddies have any government funded/sponsored social uplift programs that are faith based in their crosshairs. So don't even go there.

" . . .government

" . . .government funded/sponsored social uplift programs that are faith based . . ."

I don't think you can have it both ways. The program is either government based or it's faith based.

Free Speech

Not to offend the non American readers here, but for me this is all about free speech, and the government's ability to trample all over that right. I may or may not agree with with the ACLU or some faith based organization has to say on any given topic, but here in the US they have the right to say it. They should be able to communicate with their members both in this country and abroad and share, discuss and debate those ideas without restriction or fear of reprisal from the government. Blacklisting someone as terrorist, conspirator or any other such nonsense simply because they have calling pattern that you don't like or that matches a pattern you've determined is "bad", should be reprehensible to everyone. It's no different than racial profiling on state highways, plain and simple it's just wrong. What happens when people start figuring out talking on the phone gets them in trouble, the free exchange of ideas is squashed, and that freedom that we all say we value is lost.

I'm an American and am proud to be one. I also firmly believe that we should do everything we can to defend ourselves. However when we start riping up the laws that protect those freedoms out of fear or convenience, then we have become the very thing that we fight against.

I live in New York and on a clear day I was a 5 minute drive away from seeing the twin towers. While I don't have any members of my family serving overseas, I feel deeply for those who do, and I acknowledge and respect those who are still fighting. Let's not dishonor that service and the sacrifices of those people with a technology enabled witch hunt.

This is in EU too

It's not just in the US, this is going on in EU-countries too. Now, the following is from a "transparent Democracy" (at least for now) where we can read all this directly on the web site of the National Assembly. We don't need the press to dig it up, as it's all fully disclosed.

I've been getting curious about this lately and it seems that even in my own country laws are underway to facilitate quite substantial registration - plus easier access to wiretapping without warrants. And a whole lot more from the "traditionally-employed-in-dictatorships" department.

The government has even admitted that around 5% of suggestions in a registration law proposal were directly against the constitution. By some odd strike of reason they removed those, at least temporarily. It's currently waiting until September because they are right now busy allowing military and civilian intelligence agencies to cooperate (the mil agencies don't follow certain laws protecting national residents), and allowing for easier wiretapping. Between that and September we will have extended TV-surveillance laws proposed.

All this is being implemented as suggested by "Extensive work in the EU-circle" (a verbatim, but translated, quote from our Minister of Justice) -- so it's not just here.

So, do you really think that the US is *lagging behind* us here? Think again. Please.

@john

If by marketer you mean con artists, then yes, my BS alarms go off all the time on a a lot of nonsense as I had good training, more on that at a different date.

I really don't see conspiracy in a public figure getting busted for doing something illegal publicly, it's just a repeat of the same propaganda from the prohibition era except now it's pot instead of booze in the current "War on America, um er Drugs"

Something a history professor once told me in the 70s, which at the time I doubted and I scoffed at, but has come to pass is "That totalitarianism [at the time he meant communism] will move toward democracy as people will revolt over lack of freedoms while democracy has too much freedom will move towards totalitarianism as the need to control and protect society will outweigh our freedoms". He advocated that events would occur where many would choose to give up certain levels of freedom over time, but I just didn't expect to see such changes so quickly. The only difference is we're electing and voting on the changes driving us toward totalitarianism where people in some countries simply don't have a choice in the matter.

BTW, if you really think you're free, just wait until you have family members that work in high clearance security jobs. In the barely post-McCarthy era all of our family, friends and acquaintances were interviewed by G-men several times and you can imagine we got a LOT of phone calls wanting to know what in the hell was going on. Nothing more fun than seeing MIB's sitting down at the end of the road observing you for a while.

Some of you simply have no clue.

a New York City liberal

How's that for branding? That's how it works, right? Did you feel the emotion?

Quote:
I may or may not agree with with the ACLU or some faith based organization has to say on any given topic, but here in the US they have the right to say it. They should be able to communicate with their members both in this country and abroad ...

I agree that even the faith-based cells should be able to communicate with their members, graywolf. Oops, did I use the wrong word? Those faith-based organizations meeting up in the local coffee houses and "non profit institutions" are not to be called "cells"? Forgive my naivete. How about "sells" LOL.

We will all be better off when we finally let the machines run the world. Alas, I was born too soon.

I'm totally confused. The

I'm totally confused. The link above says nothing about telephone traffic, but internet traffic.

Where are you guys finding the phone stuff? Or does phone stuff happen on the same lines as the internet stuff?

Wrong Boat

>a New York City liberal

Well since you brought it up I'm actually a registered republican, although technically I'm more of a libertarian in philosophy, but they never get to vote in the primary elections, and I like to be part of the process. Calling me a liberal is actually so far off base it's laughable.

muppets

AT&T revealed more data by using unsecure PDFs to transmit obufscated secure data. doah.

AT&T's attorneys this week filed a 25-page legal brief striped with thick black lines that were intended to obscure portions of three pages and render them unreadable.

But the obscured text nevertheless can be copied and pasted inside some PDF readers

welcome to the 21st century painperdu

Quote:
I don't think you can have it both ways. The program is either government based or it's faith based.

That all changed 2 years ago.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.